Some PS3 developers still unaware of removal of rumble feature.

[Dave Baumann]

I don't know the details of it all, but FF use in Windows could be covered by a license by MS. For instance, DXTC is S3TC that Microsoft has licensed from S3 for use in DirectX and any hardware vendor gets to implement DXTC in hadrware to use under Direct3D - they have to separately license from S3 to use that same hardware for S3TC in OpenGL; similar licensing models can exist throughout the various elements of DirectX (which includes DirectInput).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well I guess the right place to start is find who was the first implementor of Force Feedback and may have the patent of resisting motion in a wheel. They'll be the people tech needs to be licensed from. Quick investigation shows there's an open source library for haptic feedback, and it seems it's the hardware implementation that is in need of licensing, which would fall to the peripheral developer, no?

 

[Arwin]

Well I guess the right place to start is find who was the first implementor of Force Feedback and may have the patent of resisting motion in a wheel. They'll be the people tech needs to be licensed from. Quick investigation shows there's an open source library for haptic feedback, and it seems it's the hardware implementation that is in need of licensing, which would fall to the peripheral developer, no?

I think Logitech holds that patent. If you google Microsoft and Logitech combined, I'm sure you'll find how Microsoft had to pull its Force Feedback wheel because it used Logitech stuff. Since then, the two companies have had a fair share of issues, among others over creating drivers for the Xbox, resulting in no Force Feedback wheel being available on the Xbox at all (and consequently being dismissed by me as a valid racing platform - I bought an Xbox and Forza and tried, but I keep returning to my DF Pro and PS2).

It seems like Microsoft has finally found a way out though, as apparently they've announced a wireless force feedback wheel for the 360.

 

[hey69]

MS bought a big share of Immersion... that could explain also one or 2 things.
but then again, immersion holds pattents for the rumble but when done in a certain way.

couldnt another company like sony, ms, nintendo use another techinque? with electrochoques or something like that?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

By accounts Nintendo aren't licensing Immersion for Wii or for GC, so there's definitely alternative ways. And that's for rumble. I've no idea of Immersion's presence in the Force Feedback area. If Logitech have their own technology, there's nothing to stop the Logitech wheel being used on PS3 (save developers developing for it!).

 

[scooby_dooby]

Ok, well here's a question, in the immersion lawsuit, did they claim licensing fees for both the FF and Rumble as implemented on PS2? Or was it simply for the rumble?

The other question is, how do the licensing costs for hardware support compare to the costs for the actual peripheral. The licensing costs for the hardware support (drivers) might be a small fraction of the cost that they have to pay for teh actual peripheral device. We're running on an asumption they are equal, which is probably not the case.

 

[_phil_]

Ok, well here's a question, in the immersion lawsuit, did they claim licensing fees for both the FF and Rumble as implemented on PS2? Or was it simply for the rumble?

The other question is, how do the licensing costs for hardware support compare to the costs for the actual peripheral. The licensing costs for the hardware support (drivers) might be a small fraction of the cost that they have to pay for teh actual peripheral device. We're running on an asumption they are equal, which is probably not the case.

That was rumble secquences on some games.

 

[Iron Tiger]

The removal of the rumble motors makes the controller feel entirely too light. I hope that they'll put some sort of tactile feedback back into the controller, because in its current incarnation, it feels like a flimsy toy.

It can't be expressed how awesome it is to be moving a controller and manipulating something on screen in sync, and have feedback in your hand. The instant I picked up the Wii Remote and felt it moving in my hand as I passed it over Mario on the startup screen I was shocked at how the inclusion of regular old rumble technology in the new instantly responsive controller was able to enhance the immersiveness in a new way. It reminded me of my old Logitech iFeel (which uses Immersion's rumble tech, SDK, and drivers) mouse which gives your desktop a sort of textured feeling as you mouse over it.

The PS3 game I played (Full Auto 2) didn't have any tilt sensor input, so I can't make any comparisons to the Wii's implementation of that functionality.

What if... just what if the rumble was indeed removed because of the gyro functionality?

People assume it was because Sony got pissed, refused to pay Immersion for rumble and just had to come up with something to replace it in the PS3 controller, thus the gyro.
But that actually makes less sense than the "official explanation" of rumble interfering with the gyro (which it's easy to see it would unless you're in constant denial on everything Sony)

I think that's possible, but for a totally different reason than everyone is assuming. Could it be that the magnets from the rumble motors interferes with the tilt sensor(s)? Any other implementation of rumble feedback I can imagine of would use magnets in some way.

I don't know the details of it all, but FF use in Windows could be covered by a license by MS. For instance, DXTC is S3TC that Microsoft has licensed from S3 for use in DirectX and any hardware vendor gets to implement DXTC in hadrware to use under Direct3D - they have to separately license from S3 to use that same hardware for S3TC in OpenGL; similar licensing models can exist throughout the various elements of DirectX (which includes DirectInput).

Is it possible that Logitech covers the licensing of FF for their Driving Force wheels on the PS2, and developers have to pay a fee to them and/or Immersion to include support for FF in their games? Or does the console maker have to pay for and include the FF support in their own SDKs?

 

[scooby_dooby]

That was rumble secquences on some games.

Huh? I'm wondering if the lawsuit claimed royalties for the FF libraries Sony presumably had installed on PS2, or whether it only pertained to the gamepads.

If what Powderkeg is saying, is true, then the lawsuit would also have included the costs for using the FF libraries that were installed on every PS2 out of the box.

 

[mckmas8808]

No! Plain and simple Sony lied to us. They are just not paying. Again there is no way to say it any simpler than that.

Look.

"[Sony] announced in a press release that the PS3 controller would lack vibration due to the possibility of it interfering with the controller’s new tilt sensors, which Viegas feels is unlikely.

“If what they’re saying is in fact the reason why [the controller will not have vibration], I’ve offered them numerous solutions to the problem,” Viegas said in an interview Tuesday. “I don’t believe it’s a very difficult problem to solve, and Immersion has experts that would be happy to solve that problem for them.”"

“We had a lot of employees on the floor at E3, and many of them got to get their hands on the [Playstation 3] controller,” Viegas said. “They say it felt light, that it felt cheap and flimsy, and that it lacked weight or substance. Overall, they were disappointed.”

Apparently, Immersion employees were not the only ones upset at the lack of haptic response in Sony’s new console.

“I’ve spoken with a lot of developers, and apparently out of the early kits they were given to work with, at least a few of them contained vibration technology,” Viegas said. “When the announcement was made that the final product wouldn’t contain that technology, they were as shocked as everyone else.”

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Holding over 600 patents, Immersion is certainly not going to go out of business due to the fracas over the Sony suit, but Viegas said he’s hopeful it can be resolved in a fashion that allows players to experience the depth of immersion haptic technology can offer to a next-gen system.[/SIZE][/font]

We have solutions we have perfected and demonstrated to Sony, contingent on their acceptance of our terms,” Viegas said. “All we can do now is wait and see.”

Bullshoot Sony. Just pony up the money and let the tens of millions of people around the world be happy with their rumble!! [/SIZE][/font]

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060517/murdey_01.shtml

 

[scooby_dooby]

Hmm, maybe they're just playing hardball by announcing this publically, let immersion decide if they want to miss out on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of royalties, or offer Sony a better deal. Sounds like immersion's playing some hardball of their own though.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Well, last time I checked, Sony already owed Immersion a couple of boatloads of greenbacks and I'm assuming that any future licensing of the tech for the PS3 would be contigent upon how Sony settles the original suit.

But, I really didn't believe that anybody was under the impression that Sony's excuses were valid. Nintendo was able to do it, and this isn't the first time Immersion has spoken out about the possible interaction.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Huh? I'm wondering if the lawsuit claimed royalties for the FF libraries Sony presumably had installed on PS2, or whether it only pertained to the gamepads.

The lawsuit was about some 20-25 particular games, supposedly because of a certain sequence of rumbles or something daft.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=436317&postcount=50

He said the PlayStation technology in dispute "is a very small subset of vibrations" that occur in a joystick during a small number of events per game.

For example, he said, in "A Bug's Life," the ant in the game must jump first on an acorn, which then turns into a mushroom.

Powers said the vibration in question occurs only when the ant jumps on the mushroom several times.

So it's not libraries nor hardware implementation where Sony are infringing, but using certain wobbles.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Thx for the info. Man, that is WEAK.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

And you can understand why Sony didn't kowtow to it! But I think precedence counts for more than anything in US law, and the moment one or two companies license a tech it's considered to prove ownership. I dunno. The whole technical legalities thing is confusing and makes no sense to us meer mortals. I think it was messed up by lawyers solely to prevent normal folks from getting involved these lawyers can get paid loads of money to argue with each other.

 

[ROG27]

I'm pissed at Sony for not making the concerted effort to include some sort of rumble feature, and I'm pissed at Immersion for brandishing these overly-generalized patents around like they invented physics. Oh, wait guys, my washing machine is off-balance...I better go turn it off before Immersion sues me for patent infringement!

 

[Bobbler]

I think it's safe to say a rather substantial amount of patent lawsuits are based on complete bunk. It's the game businesses have to play in the world we live in today.

I'm not sure I'd be too keen on paying out assloads of cash if I were Sony ($90+ million + licensing/royalties on new hardware is not an insignificant amount), but I do hope they find a way to add rumble, be it their own creation or just settling with Immersion. I won't be shedding any tears at the lack of rumble, but it'd be nice if it was there.

 

[ERP]

And you can understand why Sony didn't kowtow to it! But I think precedence counts for more than anything in US law, and the moment one or two companies license a tech it's considered to prove ownership. I dunno. The whole technical legalities thing is confusing and makes no sense to us meer mortals. I think it was messed up by lawyers solely to prevent normal folks from getting involved these lawyers can get paid loads of money to argue with each other.

Winning a patent case in the US is extremely expensive and extremly difficult.
The burden of proof is held to a very high standard and it's entirely on the defendant.
The "it was obvious" defense is basically unwinnable because there is an assumption that the Patent office does due dilegence when granting the patents.
Even prior art is an expensive case to win and surprisingly not a gimme.

 

[wco81]

Winning a patent case in the US is extremely expensive and extremly difficult.
The burden of proof is held to a very high standard and it's entirely on the defendant.
The "it was obvious" defense is basically unwinnable because there is an assumption that the Patent office does due dilegence when granting the patents.
Even prior art is an expensive case to win and surprisingly not a gimme.

As RIM found out, and as Apple is probably going to find out.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Just wanted to quote, bold, and underline this because thousands of people on the internet think that Blu-ray disc aren't needed and not being used. Guys BD in the PS3 isn't just needed for movies.

Could HS be made on DVD? Probably but with how much sacafices?

Sorry but that's meaningless. If the read speeds weren't so brutal to begin with, perhaps a huge streaming disc wouldn't be necessary. Ram increased 16x and read speed increased ~2x.

This is an example of designing to the system strength, you have a big slow disc, so you take advantage of the extra space to help make up for the fact your transfer speeds are slow to begin with.