Some PS3 developers still unaware of removal of rumble feature.

[onanie]

Sorry but that's meaningless. If the read speeds weren't so brutal to begin with, perhaps a huge streaming disc wouldn't be necessary. Ram increased 16x and read speed increased ~2x.

This is an example of designing to the system strength, you have a big slow disc, so you take advantage of the extra space to help make up for the fact your transfer speeds are slow to begin with.

You have heavenly sword using it as a streaming disc, regardless of what you say. Original point being, "Guys BD in the PS3 isn't just needed for movies"

 

[Sis]

You have heavenly sword using it as a streaming disc, regardless of what you say. Original point being, "Guys BD in the PS3 isn't just needed for movies"

You can stream off a DVD.

 

[onanie]

You can stream off a DVD.

You have less to stream off a DVD, and less opportunity to swap discs at the same time.

 

[Sis]

You have less to stream off a DVD, and less opportunity to swap discs at the same time.

This is way off topic for this thread, so this will be my last post on the issue. Assuming that HS (and other PS3 games) will ship on BD-25 and not BD-9, we're still only talking splitting content over 2 maybe 3 discs on DVD. To suggest that this is not technical feasible on DVD is just silly. Blu-ray is a convenience for swapping out discs, but it is not required for any features of the game itself.

 

[one]

“We had a lot of employees on the floor at E3, and many of them got to get their hands on the [Playstation 3] controller,” Viegas said. “They say it felt light, that it felt cheap and flimsy, and that it lacked weight or substance. Overall, they were disappointed.”

Wow, I laughed hard They should be dissapointed to know they can't get royalties off PS3.

 

[onanie]

This is way off topic for this thread, so this will be my last post on the issue. Assuming that HS (and other PS3 games) will ship on BD-25 and not BD-9, we're still only talking splitting content over 2 maybe 3 discs on DVD. To suggest that this is not technical feasible on DVD is just silly. Blu-ray is a convenience for swapping out discs, but it is not required for any features of the game itself.

If the convenience of not having to swap discs is a requirement (and it should, if only to avoid interruptions to the gaming experience), then blu-ray is necessary. Technical feasibility is a different matter, and I might suggest that a continuous streaming world is rather incompatible with disc swapping. If you want to take this further then perhaps we can continue on a new thread.

 

[onanie]

“We had a lot of employees on the floor at E3, and many of them got to get their hands on the [Playstation 3] controller,â€￾ Viegas said. “They say it felt light, that it felt cheap and flimsy, and that it lacked weight or substance. Overall, they were disappointed.â€￾

Wow, I laughed hard They should be dissapointed to know they can't get royalties off PS3.

Maybe they should tie the controllers down with rocks. Voila, immediate impressiveness.

 

[RobertR1]

If the convenience of not having to swap discs is a requirement (and it should, if only to avoid interruptions to the gaming experience), then blu-ray is necessary. Technical feasibility is a different matter, and I might suggest that a continuous streaming world is rather incompatible with disc swapping. If you want to take this further then perhaps we can continue on a new thread.

You actually play a game long enough in one sitting to go through an entire DVD's worth of content??? wow.........

 

[onanie]

You actually play a game long enough in one sitting to go through an entire DVD's worth of content??? wow.........

You only have to play at the border of one transition to the next (if it were posible), to see the famous four words - "Please insert disc two".

 

[ROG27]

What I want to know is how in the world is two electric motors with metal weights on the end anything which is patentable?

This is a fluff/junk patent in my opinion. If I were Sony, I wouldn't have settled over this crap either. It really is pretty ridiculous how lawyers can bend the law and make a dollar via technicalities.

 

[rounin]

The lawsuit was about some 20-25 particular games, supposedly because of a certain sequence of rumbles or something daft.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=436317&postcount=50
So it's not libraries nor hardware implementation where Sony are infringing, but using certain wobbles.

WOW. That is garbage and I now stand behind Sony 100% for fighting this lawsuit

 

[Sis]

WOW. That is garbage and I now stand behind Sony 100% for fighting this lawsuit

Just becuase Sony's attorney made it sound bad? I dislike software or business patents as much as the rest of them, but when it comes to hardware patents I'm much less cynical.

 

[ROG27]

Just becuase Sony's attorney made it sound bad? I dislike software or business patents as much as the rest of them, but when it comes to hardware patents I'm much less cynical.

The insanity of this whole thing is that I'm certain that Sony independently engineered the haptic feedback vibrators in their controllers. Hell, I could have engineered that. This patent hijacking nonsense has gone far enough, and Immersion is guilty of fraud IMO. Over600 patents and barely any tangible products to show for it--WTF? It's like the buying of website domains (cyber squatting) and holding them hostage, and when businesses or people with said name need to use them in the future, they charge exorbatent prices for there use. That is not ethical at all. It's one thing to patent and intend to use in your own products at some point...but this is nonsense.

 

[scooby_dooby]

You have heavenly sword using it as a streaming disc, regardless of what you say. Original point being, "Guys BD in the PS3 isn't just needed for movies"

Point being, this doesn't prove it's 'needed', 2 different systems with different strengths.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The insanity of this whole thing is that I'm certain that Sony independently engineered the haptic feedback vibrators in their controllers. Hell, I could have engineered that. This patent hijacking nonsense has gone far enough, and Immersion is guilty of fraud IMO. Over600 patents and barely any tangible products to show for it--WTF? It's like the buying of website domains (cyber squatting) and holding them hostage, and when businesses or people with said name need to use them in the future, they charge exorbatent prices for there use. That is not ethical at all. It's one thing to patent and intend to use in your own products at some point...but this is nonsense.

It's not immersion that's the problem, it's the system. Don't hate the player, hate the game

 

[Sis]

The insanity of this whole thing is that I'm certain that Sony independently engineered the haptic feedback vibrators in their controllers. Hell, I could have engineered that. This patent hijacking nonsense has gone far enough, and Immersion is guilty of fraud IMO. Over600 patents and barely any tangible products to show for it--WTF? It's like the buying of website domains (cyber squatting) and holding them hostage, and when businesses or people with said name need to use them in the future, they charge exorbatent prices for there use. That is not ethical at all. It's one thing to patent and intend to use in your own products at some point...but this is nonsense.

True, I can't argue with this. I was thinking it more from the perspective of assuming it was a legitimate patent (since I thought Immersion used to create hardware but stopped a while back). But I certainly understand the sentiment.

 

[a688]

The insanity of this whole thing is that I'm certain that Sony independently engineered the haptic feedback vibrators in their controllers. Hell, I could have engineered that. This patent hijacking nonsense has gone far enough, and Immersion is guilty of fraud IMO. Over600 patents and barely any tangible products to show for it--WTF? It's like the buying of website domains (cyber squatting) and holding them hostage, and when businesses or people with said name need to use them in the future, they charge exorbatent prices for there use. That is not ethical at all. It's one thing to patent and intend to use in your own products at some point...but this is nonsense.

There are reasons why IP companies exist. You shouldn't have to necessarily produce something that you own the patent for, especially if you are willing to sell it to others. Not every company has a large or full time R&D studio and companies don't want to always have to reinvent the wheel. I love your "charge exorbitant prices for their use" line. Who are you to say whats exorbitant? If you don't like the price, don't pay for it and dont' use it. Sony is a big boy they can handle lawsuits and purchasing rights to patents like anybody else.

 

[Powderkeg]

I think Logitech holds that patent. If you google Microsoft and Logitech combined, I'm sure you'll find how Microsoft had to pull its Force Feedback wheel because it used Logitech stuff. Since then, the two companies have had a fair share of issues, among others over creating drivers for the Xbox, resulting in no Force Feedback wheel being available on the Xbox at all (and consequently being dismissed by me as a valid racing platform - I bought an Xbox and Forza and tried, but I keep returning to my DF Pro and PS2).

It seems like Microsoft has finally found a way out though, as apparently they've announced a wireless force feedback wheel for the 360.

If you check Immersions web site you'll notice that every Logitech wheel uses licensed Immersion technology.

Same with Microsoft.

 

[Powderkeg]

I don't know the details of it all, but FF use in Windows could be covered by a license by MS. For instance, DXTC is S3TC that Microsoft has licensed from S3 for use in DirectX and any hardware vendor gets to implement DXTC in hadrware to use under Direct3D - they have to separately license from S3 to use that same hardware for S3TC in OpenGL; similar licensing models can exist throughout the various elements of DirectX (which includes DirectInput).

Q: Can I still use Microsoft's DirectX? Are Immersion TouchSense and DirectX competing standards?
A: Microsoft's DirectX DirectInput Force Feedback features were designed expressly to work with Immersion TouchSense. Starting in early 1997, we have worked closely with Microsoft to get Immersion TouchSense fully integrated into DirectX. Therefore, any Immersion TouchSense product will work with any DirectX application.

DirectX has all the necessary functionality to access and control force feedback joysticks, gamepads, and wheels, but not mice. While you can get mouse input from an Immersion TouchSense mouse through DirectInput, DirectInput currently does not have the ability to create sensations on an Immersion TouchSense Mouse. Furthermore, as mentioned above, DirectX is powerful and extensible but also requires tedious and lengthy bookkeeping tasks. To get around these shortcomings, developers should use the Immersion Foundation Classes (IFC), which among other things is a powerful wrapper for DirectInput (in much the same way Microsoft's MFC is a wrapper for Microsoft's Win32 API). Whether you are developing an application for a gaming product (e.g., joystick, wheel, gamepad) or for a pointing product (e.g., mouse, trackball), you should use the IFC helper tools and libraries. Doing so guarantees your compatibility with both DirectX, as well as all Immersion TouchSense products from Microsoft, Logitech, InterAct, Guillemot, ThrustMaster, CH Products, Primax, LMP, ACT Labs, Mouse Systems, SC&T, Anko, Mad Catz, and others.


http://www.immersion.com/developer/community/faq/faqDeveloper.php#D_T_13

I guess that answers that.

 

[Powderkeg]

Well I guess the right place to start is find who was the first implementor of Force Feedback and may have the patent of resisting motion in a wheel. They'll be the people tech needs to be licensed from.

That would be Immersion.