ps3 much more powerful than xbox 360?

[Mythos]

I think the difference will be less than the difference between Xbox and PS2 ie Xenon and PS3 will have its strengths and weaknesses.

I disagree. And to a degree MS seems to emphasize X360 as a value proposition than with hardware superiority (plus historically consoles coming out later are more powerful). Add to that ramblings are not only stating that the PS3 is more powerful but that both CPU/GPU are more powerful to their counterparts in X360.

Of course historically consoles are more powerful, that's not the point. The point is will this extra power advantage be visible right from the start to any significant degree beyond paper specs. What about efficiency?

I think we can say at this point that PS3 will have the most powerful cpu. If that can be leveraged with the GPU either handling VS or some exotic rendering technique, this can translate into a jump from PS2 to Xbox or greater. Add to that that Sony is handleing the manufacturing in house. They can add more tech. per cost ratio than the X 360.

 

[Carl B]

aaaaa00, which would you choose a 3PPE chip or the 1PPE + 8SPU chip?

That I can't answer, for a lot of reasons.

Ok then how about a 4PPE vs a 1PPE + 8SPE?

PC-Engine you are utterly shameless.

 

[PC-Engine]

I think the difference will be less than the difference between Xbox and PS2 ie Xenon and PS3 will have its strengths and weaknesses.

I disagree. And to a degree MS seems to emphasize X360 as a value proposition than with hardware superiority (plus historically consoles coming out later are more powerful). Add to that ramblings are not only stating that the PS3 is more powerful but that both CPU/GPU are more powerful to their counterparts in X360.

Of course historically consoles are more powerful, that's not the point. The point is will this extra power advantage be visible right from the start to any significant degree beyond paper specs. What about efficiency?

I think we can say at this point that PS3 will have the most powerful cpu. If that can be leveraged with the GPU either handling VS or some exotic rendering technique, this can translate into a jump from PS2 to Xbox or greater. Add to that that Sony is handleing the manufacturing in house. They can add more tech. per cost ratio than the X 360.

Too many ifs in that statement not to mention you're just regurgitating the same thing you said in your previous post.

PC-Engine you are utterly shameless.

I have reason to ask which would he choose between 4PPE and 1PPE + 8SPE.

 

[Mulciber]

If you can chosse betwen a 1 PPE+8 SPus cell or a 9 PPE, which one would you prefer

What kind of question is that?

Well in version 1 of cell ,at least, it would be at the same die size, so I am just wondering if it would be hard to do, and confirming if it is better.

Uh, no. 1 PPE + 8 SPU is not the same as 9 PPE.

I thought 1 PPE is about twice the chip area as an SPU.

That is in version 2 of Cell.

I wonder who they improve the PPE from v1 to v2 ...(we need a thinking smiley).

Edit v1 of cell PPE = SPU

you forgot to highlight the L2 cache

 

[PC-Engine]

Looking at that picture you could actually fit an additional 3PPEs with room to spare if you removed all 8SPEs giving you a total of 4PPEs.

So aaaaa00 would you choose the 4PPE over the 1PPE + 8SPE?

 

[Mythos]

Too many ifs in that statement not to mention you're just regurgitating the same thing you said in your previous post.

That's right. However, you've got to admit that the atmosphere is there to out power X360.

 

[PC-Engine]

Too many ifs in that statement not to mention you're just regurgitating the same thing you said in your previous post.

That's right. However, you've got to admit that the atmosphere is there to out power X360.

Yes of course. PS3 is coming out later so it has a potential technology advantage all things being equal like pricing and money loss per unit etc. Then there's the cost of incorporating the Blu-ray drive...

 

[Tacitblue]

Why would you want more PPE's? They're just the conductor, its the SPU's that chug out the 32GFLOPS single precision each. The next generation of Cell past PS3's implementation if any would have to have as a consequence of a die shrink some OoO capacity balanced by some increase in SPU's. There has to be ultimately a bottleneck eventually of how many SPU's you can effective task out to with an in order core. Least that's my guess. That's knowing that any processor no matter how good is a compromise, raw power over useablility and flexibility.

 

[PC-Engine]

Why would you want more PPE's?

Why build a dual core P4? In other words the thing I wanted to bring up was how a quad PPE processor with zero SPE's compare to a single PPE with 8 SPEs in terms of overall performance in a console.

 

[Carl B]

Why build a dual core P4?

Now this IS a good question! 8)

 

[aaaaa00]

Why would you want more PPE's? They're just the conductor, its the SPU's that chug out the 32GFLOPS single precision each.

A PPE can put out 32 GFLOPs @ 4 ghz too. The only reason the SPUs are special is that so much was cut out of them so 8 could be crammed onto a CELL die.

With reference to PC999's original question, as long as we're talking pure fantasy a 9 PPE chip will kill a 1:8 Cell chip in terms of developement ease, except you'd need 2x-4x the transistor budget to build it.

So when PC999 asked which one I'd rather have, of course I'd rather have the 9 PPE chip.

 

[PC-Engine]

Sonic, Blu-ray will definitely have an affect on what can be incorporated into PS3 at a specific cost. So all things being equal ie Xenon costs the same as PS3 without a blue laser optical drive, MS can put more silicon power into their console for the same price which is what this thread is about...console B being more powerful than console A.

 

[jvd]

if the xbox 360 launches in oct and the ps3 launches in japan in qtr 1 of 2006 than that is what 6 -7 month diffrence ? can that equate into double the power which might be enough to make a visual diffrence ?

Will be interesting

 

[marconelly!]

In other words the thing I wanted to bring up was how a quad PPE processor with zero SPE's compare to a single PPE with 8 SPEs in terms of overall performance in a console.

Apparently chip's designers thought the space is best used for more specialized, FLOPS friendly SPEs, given the applications the said chip is going to be used for. I'm assuming they had their reasons for that. If the chip was going to be used for some generalized processing, like X86 chips are, they would probably have built it differently.

can that equate into double the power which might be enough to make a visual diffrence ?

Maybe, maybe not. There's also a very strong rumor that MS does not want to lose any money on hardware units this time around, and that Sony is more than willing again, so they are expected to stuff more expensive tech in PS3 on top of having more time. At least so far, at the devkit stage, their machine is more powerful, at least that's a very persistent rumor.

 

[PC-Engine]

In other words the thing I wanted to bring up was how a quad PPE processor with zero SPE's compare to a single PPE with 8 SPEs in terms of overall performance in a console.

Apparently chip's designers thought the space is best used for more specialized, FLOPS friendly SPEs, given the applications the said chip is going to be used for. I'm assuming they had their reasons for that. If the chip was going to be used for some generalized processing, like X86 chips are, they would probably have built it differently.

I'm fully aware why they chose to stick in 8 stripped SPEs into a console cpu. I'm also fully aware why MS is supposedly using 3 beefed up PPEs/4 standard PPEs in a console cpu too...

And Regarding MS losing money on Xenons, well they'll lose money on Xenons at launch no matter what. The important thing this time around is that they can move to smaller fab processes later on so they can pack their dies on first gen Xenons.

 

[DopeyFish]

I'm fully aware why they chose to stick in 8 stripped SPEs into a console cpu. I'm also fully aware why MS is supposedly using 3 beefed up PPEs/4 standard PPEs in a console cpu too...

And Regarding MS losing money on Xenons, well they'll lose money on Xenons at launch no matter what. The important thing this time around is that they can move to smaller fab processes later on so they can pack their dies on first gen Xenons.

Exactly. People seem to be having problems getting the idea around their head that the deals Microsoft made this time is so that they don't get screwed down the road paying nearly the same prices that they were at launch. Also makes Microsoft less dependant on other companies and saves money on things like logistics (since there's no middleman). Sure it might seem like minor things but they add up. It's a cost saving solution which might not save money NOW but it will save a LOT LATER!

Wee.

 

[Titanio]

It's a cost saving solution which might not save money NOW but it will save a LOT LATER!

I agree that MS is likely to lose money on consoles sold in the short term, but I'm wondering how long that short term is. I was reading an article on the outlook for MS yesterday, and it was saying that it's expected to contribute positively to MS's bottom line pretty much immediately. I think they'll be looking for profitability much sooner with this Xbox than Sony might with Playstations..

Another important issue is that of volumes and manufacturing. MS is apparently looking to get 2-3m of these out by the end of the year. 2-3m isn't going to come easily if they push everything to the bleeding edge. I think the need for that kind of volume will press MS to be conservative where they otherwise might not, and where Sony might not (and yeah, that could come back and bite them in the asses, in the shorter term anyway, if they're struggling to meet demand, ala PSP, but my point is purely regarding the tech going into each).

 

[jvd]

I agree that MS is likely to lose money on consoles sold in the short term, but I'm wondering how long that short term is. I was reading an article on the outlook for MS yesterday, and it was saying that it's expected to contribute positively to MS's bottom line pretty much immediately. I think they'll be looking for profitability much sooner with this Xbox than Sony might with Playstations..

This time around they have big games . halo 2 or a game from the halo team will sell very well , they will be the only next gen s ystem out for this holiday . It seems likely that they will have acess to 80nm fabs by the end of 2006

65 nm will most likely be a strong possibility by 2007

Another important issue is that of volumes and manufacturing. MS is apparently looking to get 2-3m of these out by the end of the year. 2-3m isn't going to come easily if they push everything to the bleeding edge. I think the need for that kind of volume will press MS to be conservative where they otherwise might not, and where Sony might not (and yeah, that could come back and bite them in the asses, in the shorter term anyway, if they're struggling to meet demand, ala PSP, but my point is purely regarding the tech going into each).

Well we really don't know whats going on . They can have tmsc and umd producing the chips and buying x amount from each fab . So they can still push transistor counts and be fine .

Its the same thing sony will be doing like 6 months later .

 

[Johnny Awesome]

At this point I would bet that EA pretty much has to support Xbox 360. Just supporting PS3 would probably cause a lawsuit over collusion with Sony. Something that MS would easily launch, ironic or not.

 

[pc999]

EA will launch on every platform, just because they make more money this way, pay for exclusive sports games would be a really high payment.

Unless you do have the only next gen console