3DS to be more powerful than Wii -- Not using Nvidia's Tegra

[sfried]

I don't know who claimed the 3DS is capable of graphics close to X360/PS3 but they must have been smoking something hallucinogenic.

From the screenshots of RE and MGS, it's obvious there is some very good lighting but the polygons seem very low and textures quality is not very detailed. I'd say the graphics is somewhere inbetween Dreamcast and Xbox 1.

I'm pretty sure it's past Dreamcast levels. I'm noticing more shader effects being used liberally (such as the cliffside face in one of the MGS3D shots). Definitely beyond PS2/PSP at this point, that's for sure.

It's hard to "guage" performance given how little we know about the architecture. All we know right now is it has dedicated video memory.

 

[Fafalada]

This would be a weird design decision if true. Why on earth would you have dedicated video memory in an SOC?

Both NDS (just under 500KB) and PSP (2+2MB) had embeded VRam. In case of the former, the design wouldn't function without it at all. And in case of PSP, the amount is certainly enough to be "interesting".

I still haven't completely let go of the idea that the 3D graphics are an enhancement of the DS's, with especially more per-pixel capability and texture filtering

After watching the media I kinda got the impression as well. And the cool things about DS rasterizer (like being overdraw free) would make that much more difference with the speculated pixel-shading upgrades in 3DS.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

BC also points towards DS extended hardware. And no AA on the Metal Gear screenshots suggests no improvements in that department, although that could just be this game.

 

[Fafalada]

And no AA on the Metal Gear screenshots suggests no improvements in that department, although that could just be this game.

One thing that really stands out in all the realtime media is the pretty bad PSP/PS2 esque texture aliasing (which points to either no-use of mipmaps in current demos, or hw having similar issues with mipmap filters as Sony's machines).
It's also why people probably put DC as nicer looking in motion (much like with PSP).

 

[fehu]

someone suggested that AA in 3D mode will not be necessary because the screen blurs a little the image sending the two images

one thing that i don't understand is why in 3d mode the resolution is a quarter and not full vertical and middle horizontal
and if it will be possible to use the screen in full resolution

 

[Shifty Geezer]

someone suggested that AA in 3D mode will not be necessary because the screen blurs a little the image sending the two images

Sony have been saying AA is more important in 3D. I've no personal experience to form an opinion.

 

[idsn6]

someone suggested that AA in 3D mode will not be necessary because the screen blurs a little the image sending the two images

That doesn't sound correct to me.

Think of "temporal AA," i.e. jitter'n'blend. That breaks down entirely when the two images aren't essentially the same. With 3D, this is the case all the time.

 

[Exophase]

And the cool things about DS rasterizer (like being overdraw free) would make that much more difference with the speculated pixel-shading upgrades in 3DS.

DS's rasterizer isn't deferred/overdraw free, it's just scanline ordered (so you could call it tiled). The fillrate of 30M pixel/s is 10x the screen resolution @ 60Hz, so it's probably pretty hard to exhaust it, but it's possible.

 

[darkblu]

One thing that really stands out in all the realtime media is the pretty bad PSP/PS2 esque texture aliasing (which points to either no-use of mipmaps in current demos, or hw having similar issues with mipmap filters as Sony's machines).
It's also why people probably put DC as nicer looking in motion (much like with PSP).

Check out Kid Icarus footage - plenty of oblique surfaces there (low flight scenes) and they all seem using trilinear to me. The reason I noticed that is that my video streaming here sucks and I see plenty of 'stills'.

 

[Squeak]

Both NDS (just under 500KB) and PSP (2+2MB) had embeded VRam. In case of the former, the design wouldn't function without it at all. And in case of PSP, the amount is certainly enough to be "interesting". After watching the media I kinda got the impression as well. And the cool things about DS rasterizer (like being overdraw free) would make that much more difference with the speculated pixel-shading upgrades in 3DS.

Of course! That would fit perfectly with relatively simple geometry, to keep the buffersize for that down. It would also fit with the need to keep fillrate requirements down. They already need to render the scene twice, having two z-buffers would make matters much worse.
It would also negate the cost of having to include the DS graphics chip for BC.

Scanline and the similar technologies, is really the only sensible thing for portable hardware. Both with regards to resources required/saved but also coubled with the geometry sublety you can actually discern on such a small screen.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

Unlike reported by DF, Miyamoto confirms shaders.

"We have shaders that people are able to take advantage of [...]."

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/16/interview-nintendos-shigeru-miyamoto-on-3ds-retro-zelda-and/

Yeah, I really don't understand how DF could come to the conclusion that the 3DS doesn't have shaders after seeing MGS and RER. Apparently, both Capcom and Konami hadaround 2 months to make those demos. I can't confirm if that's true, though.

 

[Fafalada]

DS's rasterizer isn't deferred/overdraw free, it's just scanline ordered

The way I remember it, scanline rendering time is fixed, and the restriction to number of polygons you can fit inside one is the primitive setup time(after the buffer size), not their size. It's been awhile since I looked at the thing though, and I didn't exactly test this in practice.

Check out Kid Icarus footage - plenty of oblique surfaces there (low flight scenes) and they all seem using trilinear to me. The reason I noticed that is that my video streaming here sucks and I see plenty of 'stills'.

That's the video where I first noticed texture aliasing (on those very oblique surfaces) - it's in motion that pixel shimmering is the most obvious (especially with streaming compression, I doubt I'd catch much in stills).

 

[Exophase]

The way I remember it, scanline rendering time is fixed, and the restriction to number of polygons you can fit inside one is the primitive setup time(after the buffer size), not their size. It's been awhile since I looked at the thing though, and I didn't exactly test this in practice.

Physical scanline time is fixed, but the 3D rasterizer is not actually synchronized with the LCD. There's a 48-line FIFO between the two, which should indicate to you that the scanline render time isn't fixed. The time necessary has a setup component but is mostly proportional to the number of pixels in the span.

Bear in mind that DS games also make heavy use of alpha test without penalty. Especially with 2D games utilized with 3D.

 

[thop]

That's the video where I first noticed texture aliasing (on those very oblique surfaces) - it's in motion that pixel shimmering is the most obvious (especially with streaming compression, I doubt I'd catch much in stills).

A high quality video is available from Nintendo here.

 

[darkblu]

That's the video where I first noticed texture aliasing (on those very oblique surfaces) - it's in motion that pixel shimmering is the most obvious (especially with streaming compression, I doubt I'd catch much in stills).

Of course one can't catch the shimmering in stills, but one can see the degradation of texture detail due to the anisotropy of the oblique sufrace projection, when used with isotropic sampling filters (i.e. bi/trilinear). As for the video advantage, low-quality motion-estimating algos can contribute their own shimmer due to the 'subtle planning movement we'd rather skimp' logic in many of those.

ps: mucho gracias, thop.

ed: After watching the high-quality QT verstion of the trailer from nitendo's press material, I'm willing to agree with Faf - there's apparent and predominant shimmer in most of the oblique cases, and those instances which I thought showed trilinear are narrowed down to a single instance (the flight over the green field), and it's not so apparent either. OTOH, other cases where trilinear would have been easilly spottend (cobble-stone tiled floors, etc) show no traces of such. So what is mostly at work in that trailer is either billinear, or cheap AF. All IMO, of course.

 

[Alucardx23]

Can someone tell me what’s the native resolution for the 3DS screen? 800×240 or 400x240, I mean is Nintendo giving the 800X240 resolution because of the 3D effect, or the screen is true 800X240 native.

 

[sfried]

Can someone tell me what’s the native resolution for the 3DS screen? 800×240 or 400x240, I mean is Nintendo giving the 800X240 resolution because of the 3D effect, or the screen is true 800X240 native.

400 of those 800 pixels are for the left eye, while the other 400 are for the right. The parallax barrier each separates them, so while it might be 800 native, you are really only seeing 400 in a screenshot.

 

[Alucardx23]

400 of those 800 pixels are for the left eye, while the other 400 are for the right. The parallax barrier each separates them, so while it might be 800 native, you are really only seeing 400 in a screenshot.

Thanks a lot.

 

[sfried]

I believe I read an IGN article somewhere comparing the 3D effects of each of the demos, and specifically mentioned one of the titles (Paper Mario 3DS) either had it on or off, suggesting that the 3D is perhaps driver controlled.

 

[brain_stew]

I believe I read an IGN article somewhere comparing the 3D effects of each of the demos, and specifically mentioned one of the titles (Paper Mario 3DS) either had it on or off, suggesting that the 3D is perhaps driver controlled.

Its user controlled. There's a slider that you can use to increase the intensity/depth of the 3D effect or dial it all the way down until it is completely disabled. Doesn't work with movies (unsurprisingly) but all the game demos let you change it on the fly.