PS3 Controller Rumor (Updated)

[rabidrabbit]

Sorry but I agree with powderkeg, the L analog stick goes under my thumb in a normal rest position with the xbox360 controller, to get the L analog stick under my thumb with the DS I need to stretch my thumb down.

I was going to add my own picture for you with both DS and xbox360 but it seems the batteries in my camera are dead.

<edit> I should also mention that your hand does need to be to the side/on the edge of the xbox360 controller if you want to be able to reach the trigger with your index finger.

No need to be sorry Alphawolf.
That just proves my point, with one controller your thums fall into different place than with the other.
Just because the xbox360 your thumb is in a mopre natural position with the upper analog (what about the right hand analog then?) doesn't mean it would be the ideal position with an other controller.

If that indeed is the natural way to hold the xbox360 controller, then it would put the wrists in a more unnatural angle than the DS. With xb360 your palms are more vertical, with DS your palms are more naturally facing a bit more downwards.

 

[AlphaWolf]

That just proves my point, with one controller your thums fall into different place than with the other.
Just because the xbox360 your thumb is in a mopre natural position with the upper analog (what about the right hand analog then?) doesn't mean it would be the ideal position with an other controller.

I agree that switching the D-pad and analog on the DS might not be perfect, I just think it would be better. Really I'd think they need to move them further away from the edges of the controller by a bit (up and towards the center) to be a better fit.

Even the right analog stick on the x360 is a bit better because it is a further reach.

If that indeed is the natural way to hold the xbox360 controller, then it would put the wrists in a more unnatural angle than the DS. With xb360 your palms are more vertical, with DS your palms are more naturally facing a bit more downwards.

Ok found some batteries.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/4194/controller4ho.jpg

You can see that the C made by my thumb and forefinger are much larger when reaching for the analog sticks on the DS. Even moreso than when reaching for the right analog on the x360.

<edit> I apologize for the condition of my DS, but that plastic is weak

 

[Apoc]

Three pictures from the GC pad:

 

[Bad_Boy]

<edit> I apologize for the condition of my DS, but that plastic is weak

what the hell did you do to it? Ive had the same DS controllers for like 5 years and still dont show any signs of major wear and tear. And ive actually thrown them around a few times in their day, you should of seen me playing the god of war challenges.

 

[rabidrabbit]

While I haven't really used the xbox or GC controllers that much, I really see little, or none, advantage in ergonomics for the second analog being there higher.
From what I've tried, to me, they both feel about the same, the other stresses the thumb differentely, but I wouldn't say either of them are more comfortable to you thumb movement.
That's why I don't understand those bit*hing the DS because the analogs are symmetrical.
I do agree the DS analogs are a little less comfortable than either xbox analogs, though I've been able to live and score high with them for years, so their position really hasn't been a problem, more their slight "stickiness"...

With GC controller, I've understood the main reason for putting the analogs non-symmetrically was because they wanted to differentiate the other as a "camera" controller, not because of ergonomics.
The xbox just copied it from GC. Don't know what other reason they had for that desicion... did they hope to get Nintendo to port Zelda and Mario for xbox ?

 

[Apoc]

The xbox just copied it from GC. Don't know what other reason they had for that desicion... did they hope to get Nintendo to port Zelda and Mario for xbox ?

Probably they (xbox and GC) copied the pad design from Dreamcast, and improved it.

 

[Rodéric]

Probably they (xbox and GC) copied the pad design from Dreamcast, and improved it.

I'm rather agreeing with that Controller Heritage Tree :
http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A click wheel like on the Apple iPods might work out to be a better intuitive mechanism. You can click the wheel in four different directions and can spin it either left or right.

I like that idea, or even thinking up other alternatives to a static D-pad. Some more interface options could be crammed into the same space.

 

[AlphaWolf]

what the hell did you do to it? Ive had the same DS controllers for like 5 years and still dont show any signs of major wear and tear. And ive actually thrown them around a few times in their day, you should of seen me playing the god of war challenges.

It's mostly just from grip pressure, the plastic mountings for the screws broke free.

 

[Bad_Boy]

It's mostly just from grip pressure, the plastic mountings for the screws broke free.

odd.

anybody see this?

 

[rabidrabbit]

Great! Although the position at which the DS2 is imagined to be held in that pic is maybe a bit exaggarated, thet's just what I've come thinking to when looking at the Dual Shock 3 pictures.
Where is that .gif from? It's not from Sony is it?
From that picture tlooks as the triangle and circle buttons are a bit far from reach, but X and square are the most used buttons (at least in the western configuration) as action buttons, with triangle and circle often reserved for menus and secondary actions, so they are not used that much in the heat of the action. Anyway, that's the same in pretty much all controllers when you look at them, but when you use them they don't pose much problems, the hands are quite flexible organs anyway
Indeed, the controller isn't so small many think it is. If that pic is some "unofficial" mockup, it probably isn't 100% accurate, of course it depends whether the hands in that pic are small or big.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Where is that .gif from? It's not from Sony is it?

I found it at psinext, but it orginated from the guy who made it on the gamespot forums.
gamespot.com/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=24015386

btw rabidrabbit, good annalysis of the image. I agree with many of your points.

 

[hey69]

straight line evolution...

whats next in 10 years time? a frisbee shaped controller?

 

[PC-Engine]

It is less fatiging to have your thumb and index finger closer together than farther apart like when trying to make a round C letter with those two fingers. That is why the DS's left analog thumbstick is not in the most ergonomic position. The most used buttons should be in the least fatiging position. Xbox360 and GCN controller layout comes closest to those ideals. PS3 controller is even more wierd forcing you to extend your index finger all the way to the center of the controller. Also ideally the shoulder buttons should not be completely horizontal. It should be angled slighty outward and downward. The ideal controller should allow your palms to be slightly turned up while holding it instead of down like when typing on a keyboard.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Uh.. when I sit at a chair, my hands at my lap, they are at their most relaxed position the palms facing more downwards. The more I make them face upwards, the more twist and thus strain I must put to my forearms.
It's not really different to when you're standing, your palms are facing more backwards than forwards. When you sit down and put your hands on your lap or on your knees or on the chair armrests, the palms are still facing more downwards.
Also the hand is at it's most relaxed when you are not pressing the fingers together, if you leave your fingers relaxed there is indeed a slight C between forefinger and thumb.
Actually it is pretty much what you can see in that DS3 pic, there is a straight line between your thumb and your forearm, would you put your thumb closer to your forefinger, it would be at an angle.
You don't need to be a specialized orthopaedist to know these unnecessary angles can cause RSI

Edit: Before you say what I think you're going to say, please note one does not play the consoles in front of a workdesk. The controller is not replacing the keyboard... just a hint

 

[BlueTsunami]

The size of the controller itself is supposed to be the size of a CD (circumfrence), so imagine (or actually go out and try) wraping your hands around the outer edge of a CD and see how it feels.

Heres the picture again, for reference..

EDIT: I noticed the gif showing how the PS3 controller can be possibly confortable probably isn't the actual size of the PS3 controller. For some reason, looking at the example and comparing it to the picture in my post, that the PS3 controller is actually smaller (than whats represented in the gif).

 

[Bad_Boy]

EDIT: I noticed the gif showing how the PS3 controller can be possibly confortable probably isn't the actual size of the PS3 controller. For some reason, looking at the example and comparing it to the picture in my post, that the PS3 controller is actually smaller (than whats represented in the gif).

so it would be easier to wrap your index finger around the controller and easier to hit the circle and triangle buttons with your thumb. this controller is actually sounding much more comfortable than most make it out to be, i cant wait to get one in my hands to tell for sure.

 

[PC-Engine]

Uh.. when I sit at a chair, my hands at my lap, they are at their most relaxed position the palms facing more downwards. The more I make them face upwards, the more twist and thus strain I must put to my forearms.

It's not really different to when you're standing, your palms are facing more backwards than forwards. When you sit down and put your hands on your lap or on your knees or on the chair armrests, the palms are still facing more downwards.

Ever take Physiology? When you are standing with your arms relaxed by your side, the palm is facing your thighs. When you hold a heavy object like a book up in the air do you hold it palm facing up or down? Why is that? I tell you why because gravity pulls the object straight down so it's easier to hold it with palm facing up. Same exact thing applys to a controller. See how long you can hold that thick dictionary with palms facing down.

Also the hand is at it's most relaxed when you are not pressing the fingers together, if you leave your fingers relaxed there is indeed a slight C between forefinger and thumb.

And that's what I said. A round C is what the DS is forcing you to do vs a relaxed C when you use the left analog thumbstick which is the majority of the time.

so it would be easier to wrap your index finger around the controller and easier to hit the circle and triangle buttons with your thumb. this controller is actually sounding much more comfortable than most make it out to be, i cant wait to get one in my hands to tell for sure.

Smaller controller != more confortable for people with big hands.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Smaller controller != more confortable for people with big hands.

Thats where I see the PS3's controller giving people the most trouble. The thing looks very small and people with big hands will dwarf the thing. But in all honesty...it HAS to be better than the DS2 (I hope)

 

[Guden Oden]

Probably they (xbox and GC) copied the pad design from Dreamcast, and improved it.

Except "copied" is a bit overly dramatic expression when that is the place the pad has to go, considering the geometry of the human hand. Not knowing what concept or prototype models Nintendo may have had in the past before introduction of the DC, your claim Nintendo plagiarized sega seems rather unfounded methinks.