Provocative comment by Id member about PS2 (and Gamecube)!

[cybamerc]

Nick Laslett:

> Because Sony DVD players have complied with the EU position on prog
> scan right up until about now + their TVs.

The new DVD players from Sony support PAL and NTSC progressive. They're not that far behind the competition in this regard. Their TVs however are quite simply outdated.



london-boy:

> oh for god's sake, WILL U LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!!

No. As long as you keep spreading lies I will be there to correct you.




rabidrabbit:

> Or is this prog scan in PS2 because of the Linux kit?

Why would it be that? What does the Linux Kit have to do with games? Euro Cubes and Xboxen can display a progressive signal just fine. The feature is just removed from the software.

> I have the impression that the PAL progressive standard ratification
> conserns mainly DVD's (movies)

It concerns anything outputting a PAL progressive signal.

> I see it more like thinking forward by Sony, maybe they knew that prog
> scan would mecome more mainstream in EU during PS2 lifetime.

It has nothing to do with forward thinking. M$ and Nintendo didn't stipulate that software for their systems can't support progressive because they felt it wasn't needed or to crap on European consumers - they did it because they were asked to. Simple as that.

> The plasmas and projectors have suppported it from at least day the
> PS2 was launched (likely much longer).

And how many people use/can afford those? Their direct view CRTs are a joke. Also, are you sure prog scan is supported via component? It isn't on Philips plasmas.

> Traditonal tube TV's are still rare, I think there is just one model from
> Panasonic, and another from Toshiba.

Several from Panasonic, several from Toshiba, several from JVC (including the first Europan direct view HDTV), several from Loewe...

 

[Squeak]

Great post! I 100% agree with you. PS2 roxor me boxor with 3Dzz graphics greator me no seeyor beforeya! I believe they are almost equal in terms of graphics too.

I’m sorry Chap, but I believe you misunderstood me.

one of the few things that i really do appreciate of the Xbox is that pretty much every game has DD5.1... i think that is what DICE is all about...
PS2 has DTS but its hardly ever used...

AFAIK that xbox sound chip, is more like a sound rasteriser than individual processor. The CPU still has to compute the placement of the 3d sound sources.

 

[chaphack]

Doesnt EU sell any progressive enabled TVs? Just get one, mod the hardware and walah! 480p. Though great move by Sony for 480ping PS2 and their wide range of progressive PS2 games. Superb.

 

[chaphack]

Great post! I 100% agree with you. PS2 roxor me boxor with 3Dzz graphics greator me no seeyor beforeya! I believe they are almost equal in terms of graphics too.

I’m sorry Chap, but I believe you misunderstood me.

Nothing to be sorry, I understand you. Maybe it is i to ask for forgiveness if my english failed to convey what i meant. You got a great post going. I agree.

I love my Ps2 graphics more after what understanding the mysteries of its working. you guys were right all along.

honest. cross my heart and hope to fly.

 

[London Geezer]

...what is he on about now...? :? *confused me* :? :?

 

[chaphack]

Nothing. Just that my head is finally cleared. Spent the whole yester-evening till the middle of the night, pondering..pondering...and pondering...heart pounding.. sweat amassing....brains hurt.. cant sleep but finally..the light shiney shined on me!!!!!

Yep. You guys were right with the PS2-Xbox graphics fiasco all along. My bad, sorry.

 

[Squeak]

Oh how I love sarkasm, especially when someone as eloquent as chap is using it.

 

[chaphack]

what is this "sarkasm" word you speak? but i thank you for praising me english(even though i know its not up to par but me no speakie first english ). at least it feels good that my heartfelt words managed to get the point across.

my school teacher was right. be truthful and the world will work around even though you might not be the brightest spark.

 

[London Geezer]

cybamerc,

No. As long as you keep spreading lies I will be there to correct you.

what lies???

did u even bother reading my post? i never said it was MS or Nintendo's fault. and NEVER have i said it's a "hardware fault" or whatever u said. all i was saying is that it's ridiculous. the whole fact that the only console to output pro-scan is PS2 is RIDICULOUS. got it?

now, what lies did i say again?

 

[London Geezer]

my school teacher was right. be truthful and the world will work around even though you might not be the brightest spark

yeah.... wonder why she told YOU?! just kidding....

so, now Chap has gone from Xbox fanboi to PS2 fanboi ... still unsure whhether this is a good thing or a bad thing......... :?

 

[chaphack]

nothing to hide. i TOTALLY suck at maths and anything technical/numerical. my head just cant crunch those numbers and formulaes no matter how hard/long i think. :?

if its good its good, as i always believed. me = slow.

 

[London Geezer]

me = slow.

stating the obvious.... i'm just teasing man...

i've been told to buy a 500 page book and learn all the formulas in the book. there are 3 formulas per page. u think i'm SERIOUSLY gonna learn 1500 formulas BY HEART... jesus they're insane...

anyway, is this thread over or what?

 

[rabidrabbit]

rabidrabbit:

> Or is this prog scan in PS2 because of the Linux kit?

Why would it be that? What does the Linux Kit have to do with games? Euro Cubes and Xboxen can display a progressive signal just fine. The feature is just removed from the software.

Linux kit has not much to do with games, but it has everything to do with PS2. That's what the question was about, right?

> I have the impression that the PAL progressive standard ratification
> conserns mainly DVD's (movies)

It concerns anything outputting a PAL progressive signal.

Well, as there is not much other mainstream software 8than dvd's and some games) that 'is progressive', that's just nitpicking.

> I see it more like thinking forward by Sony, maybe they knew that prog
> scan would mecome more mainstream in EU during PS2 lifetime.

It has nothing to do with forward thinking. M$ and Nintendo didn't stipulate that software for their systems can't support progressive because they felt it wasn't needed or to crap on European consumers - they did it because they were asked to. Simple as that.

Of course, again in your opinion, it has nothing to do with what I said. Am I dealing with a person who's inherently opposing here?
Do you have any proof that they were asked not to include progressive san? Was it the same reason Nintendo did not include s-video on PAL GC. No, it has nothing to do with prog scan, but Nintendo just didn't think s-video would be needed for PAL GC, as all PAL TV's have SCART, most even RGB scart. Same reason for MS and N not including prog scan in their consoles in EU. They didn't think it would be missed much, and it was also a cost saving issue.

> The plasmas and projectors have suppported it from at least day the
> PS2 was launched (likely much longer).

And how many people use/can afford those? Their direct view CRTs are a joke. Also, are you sure prog scan is supported via component? It isn't on Philips plasmas.

Plasmas and projectors are coming down in prices. You can buy a very good projector for the same price that you'd buy a good 32" CRT TV.
Component is not always the same as progressive scan, I know that, never claimed it is always the same as prog scan, did I? But on fixed pixel displays, like plasmas, component meand more often than not the same as progressive scan. Don't know which Philips plasma you're talking about (a 1998 or so model?), but the current line i believe does support prog scan via component, providing you have a dvd player (or other device) that outputs prog scan.

> Traditonal tube TV's are still rare, I think there is just one model from
> Panasonic, and another from Toshiba.

Several from Panasonic, several from Toshiba, several from JVC (including the first Europan direct view HDTV), several from Loewe...

I'm not so sure of your claim of 'several' models. Sure, there are models that support NTSC prog scan, or that have 'resolution doublers' like JVC's D.I.S.T and Philips's PixelPlus, but they really have nothing to do with progressive scan.

 

[Simon F]

5: I dont know for sure (as I'm not a developer) but I don?t think texture compression is as big an advantage as it is often made to sound like (at least not S3TC/DXTC), and I don?t think it is actually used very often in real games.

I can't speak for the XBOX or GameCube, but texture compression is used quite a lot on the PC while VQ was typically used for ~75% of the textures on DC.

Texture compression is an important factor in reducing the graphics system's required bus bandwidth as well as decreasing the amount of texture swapping that has to be performed by the application.

 

[Phil]

cybamerc:

M$ and Nintendo merely decided to comply with the EU's (EBU?) wishes that progressive scan wouldn't be actively supported until the PAL progressive standard had been ratified. Annoying as it is you can hardly fault M$ and Nintendo for playing nice. Sony just does what it wants.

How so? Enabling progressive scan is entirely up to the developer.

It has nothing to do with forward thinking. M$ and Nintendo didn't stipulate that software for their systems can't support progressive because they felt it wasn't needed or to crap on European consumers - they did it because they were asked to. Simple as that.

No one is being crapped on.


chap:

Doesnt EU sell any progressive enabled TVs? Just get one, mod the hardware and walah! 480p. Though great move by Sony for 480ping PS2 and their wide range of progressive PS2 games. Superb.

For what? Europe has had the superiour picture standard up until now that progressive standards are becoming widely available in NTSC regions. The picture quality of an interlaced source submited by a relatively good 100Hz tv and setup is just as good, at least for mainstream consumers.


Squeak:

6. Progressive Scan output + 720P support

He forgot that every PS2 is actually capable of that and much more. Or maybe my PS2 running linux with an even higher res is just a hoax...


Oh and to everyone: please, for the love of B3D, please ignore the two kids.

 

[cybamerc]

london-boy:

> what lies???

because someone decided to completely cut it from the [Xbox and GameCube] hardware

That is a lie.



rabidrabbit:

> That's what the question was about, right?

That may be but it has nothing to do with the hardware. Let me repeat: PS2, Xbox and GameCube all support progressive scan in hardware even on PAL units. The reason why there aren't any progressive scan capable PAL games for Cube and Xbox is because the feature has been removed from the software - SOFTWARE, not hardware.

I fail to see the connection between Linux and games for PS2.

> Well, as there is not much other mainstream software 8than dvd's and
> some games

Whether or not it was designed for movies is irrelevant. It's the same standard.

> Do you have any proof that they were asked not to include progressive san?

When I say "asked" I don't mean that the EU sent a personal letter to Nintendo and M$. It was a general guideline that most companies decided to follow. Why do you think that companies are just now starting to implement PAL progressive support on a large scale in their products? Why do you think that certain companies with PAL progressive capable products decided to hide the feature in the firmware so it wasn't readily available at purchase? As a favor to Sony? For fun?

> Was it the same reason Nintendo did not include s-video on PAL GC.

No s-video on PAL Cubes is purely a cost saving decision. The s-video out was simply converted to RGB out.

> Same reason for MS and N not including prog scan in their consoles in EU.

PAL GAMECUBES AND XBOXEN SUPPORT PROGRESSIVE SCAN DAMMIT! PAL progressive scan is not supported in the software however. NTSC software on PAL hardware outputs a progressive signal as it would on NTSC hardware.

> You can buy a very good projector for the same price that you'd buy a
> good 32" CRT TV.

And how many people have those? Most people wouldn't consider a front projector as a substitution for a tv set. They're noisy, need expensive screens or at the very least a proper wall, need seperate tuners and don't fit in well in most people livingrooms/tv rooms.

And it still doesn't change the fact that Sony's TVs are underspecified.

> Component is not always the same as progressive scan

No but VGA isn't exactly standard on any of the current systems.

> Don't know which Philips plasma you're talking about (a 1998 or so model?)

Philips 32 PF 9965

> I'm not so sure of your claim of 'several' models.

Panasonic TX-32PD30
Panasonic TX-36PD30
Panasonic TX-36PL35
Panasonic TX-32PH40
Panasonic TX-32PS20

Toshiba Atrium 28ZD26
Toshiba Atrium 32ZD26
Toshiba Atrium 36ZD26

JVC HV-28P37 (HDTV)
JVC HV-32P37 (HDTV)
JVC HV-36P38 (HDTV)
JVC HV-32D25

Various recent Loewes although they don't have a regular component in (they have component via SCART). It's not really a supported feature as such but nevertheless something they can do.

> or that have 'resolution doublers' like JVC's D.I.S.T

You can bypass the internal processing.

 

[cybamerc]

Phil:

> How so? Enabling progressive scan is entirely up to the developer.

And it's up to the manufacturer to approve the product for release.

> No one is being crapped on.

Tell that to london-boy.

 

[wazoo]

Progressive scan is possible on PAL GC with US Software + Freeloader, so the hardware is capable.


I did not try with the recent hardware but comparing my Dc connected to my TV + RGB scart with the same console connected to monitor + VGA Box is hardly different.

 

[marconelly!]

Cybamerc, don't see why are you obsessing over semantics so much. OK, it's not cut from the hardware but from firmware (or software). Big deal. Can you play PAL pro-scan games on them in Europe? Apparently, you can't, and you can on PS2. I think it's pretty obvious that's what's his point.

 

[Qroach]

Cybermerc is just doing what he always does. Just ignore him.