Provocative comment by Id member about PS2 (and Gamecube)!

[phed]

Hmmm, I've got a question...

If we were to do a new rez, iow rez2.0 with massive amounts of particles, and polys... Which would be better xbox or ps2?

Or would they be pretty close, since they both would gain alot from avoiding texturing altogether(no?)?

I think the PS2 is the clear winner here, since it is so good at unrealistic rendering; a dozen vu programs plus some heavy framebuffer effects pr frame instead of the naive DC port. I bet they could easily quadruple the polygons pr frame because of this. And perhaps they could use a DVD instead of squeezing everything onto a CD.

On texturing, they would be better of using images as input data onto models which it seems PS2 is quite nicely fitted to do, take an image and some parameter from one side, output mesh at other.

 

[chaphack]

http://www.gamasutra.com/gdc2003/features/20030307/dobson_01.htm

The resulting Xbox engine is capable of displaying the same number of characters as the PS2 version, but at 60 frames-per-second (fps), as opposed to 30fps.

8)

 

[chaphack]

Where has this been documented?

Here!
There was one really old topic whereby it is said that GC > XB > PS2 in terms of latency. ahhhhh the good ol' days of B3D, lotsa real game developers' techspeak(and not some wannabes). 8)

 

[PC-Engine]

I guess most of the developers are too busy to post here often anymore. ERP, fresh, archie4oz, Falalada, am I missing anyone? I wonder what these guys are working on now...

Oh and let's not forget the 3D artists like Laa-Yosh hehe.

 

[cthellis42]

No, I just think they avoid partisan consolatics like the plague. And long, rambling threads.

On MMO's, keep in mind the genre is still very new (unless one counts MUD history), and they have LONG development times. I've played and beta'd a lot and have seen a fair amount of change in that time... It'll grow and it'll splinter. ^_^

 

[chaphack]

I think there are few more cool ones like mrwibble, mboeller, Crazyace, Pana, Cybamerc, Thowlly, Democoder, Reznor7 and a few more cant recall now. Not all are game developers but at least they have better 3d graphiX understanding than wannabes who come into topics, quoting badass numbers and calculations.

Too bad the forums dont keep an archive.

I find Vince and Marc are pretty comfy with a certain level of tech talk too. (even thou the first dude dont really like me! ).

 

[zidane1strife]

Agents who come into topics, quoting badass numbers and calculations

Does this have anything to do with my anti-pixa rendah fam posts? It's but the truth... I expect( and wish for) the next gen.... to be capable of doing things, that although might not be technically up-to par with hw cg... will certainly in the eyes of many impress...

Multi-gflop.... vs Multi Tflop consoles... 3 orders of magnitude... suppose the better h/w, h/w accel, better mem, better bw... etc... compound... and give us the last one... the last necessary order of magnitude to be able to do the lwst detail scenes in realtime....

That level of detail will help make games more mainstream, bringing and keeping previous, present, and future generations in the game...

 

[Paul]

Not all are game developers but at least they have better 3d graphiX understanding than wannabes who come into topics, quoting badass numbers and calculations.

Talking about yourself?

It's actually quite ironic.

 

[Zeross]

I've read somewhere how that cache is 32GB/sec (so it's not faster), but feel free to correct me.

The real number is confidential but even if it's 32GB/s it's still better than GS eDRAm, don't forget that GS is using multiple bus to access VRAM and 48GB/s is the aggregate bandwith. The bandwith dedicated to textures is something like 9.6GB/s if I recall correctly.

My position on the whole Xbox VS PS2 thing : I think that we've two machines using different approaches towards the same goal : giving the best gaming performance possible. Each of these "visions" have qualities and drawbacks, it's a question of tradeoffs. Xbox is IMO a well balanced architecture, PS2 is more like an "extreme architecture" conceived to push polygons at an incredibly pace. Which one is the better ? Difficult to say. Of course you can have a personal preference but it's useless to bash the other machine. IMO the Xbox is more powerfull in virtually every aspects but :
1-it's just my opinion
2-I recognize that there are still things that you can do more efficiently on the PS2
3-isn't it normal for a machine released later ?
4-Well conceived and optimized games look gorgeous on both systems

Moreover I've learned that it is really difficult to talk of bottlenecks on machines if you haven't experienced them : I was almost sure that the tiny 1.2GB/s bus between EE and GS was the worst bottleneck on the PS2 but I've talked with a PS2 programmer (who is currently working on Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorow) and he tells me that the bottleneck on the game was the MIPS core ! On some effects they are using up to nine pass but still fillrate isn't an issue I was quite surprised. So it's difficult to just look at the specs and point one part and say "Well here there is a an issue with this, it is the bottleneck of the system"

Just my two cents
Ah and forgive my bad english

 

[notAFanB]

don't forget that GS is using multiple bus to access VRAM and 48GB/s is the aggregate bandwith. The bandwith dedicated to textures is something like 9.6GB/s if I recall correctly.

this is interesting any links by chance?

 

[Zeross]

don't forget that GS is using multiple bus to access VRAM and 48GB/s is the aggregate bandwith. The bandwith dedicated to textures is something like 9.6GB/s if I recall correctly.

this is interesting any links by chance?

Just uploaded
http://hardwired.free.fr/graphics-synthesizer.pdf

I was refering to this :
Combined Internal
Data Bus bandwidth 2560 bit (48GB/s@150MHz)
Read 1024 bit (19.2GB/s@150MHz)
Write 1024 bit (19.2GB/s@150MHz)
Texture 512 bit (9.6GB/s@150MHz)

 

[chaphack]

Does this have anything to do with my anti-pixa rendah fam posts?

Well, i think you are a nice guy still. There are worse around.

 

[Fafalada]

I was almost sure that the tiny 1.2GB/s bus between EE and GS was the worst bottleneck on the PS2 but I've talked with a PS2 programmer (who is currently working on Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorow) and he tells me that the bottleneck on the game was the MIPS core

Bus being the main bottleneck was just one of the early myths propagated about the console. And not unlike the myths about UMA and XBox performance, or some others, it grew popular enough that it still sticks around to this day in internet community.

Anyway, MIPS core is probably the most common bottleneck in PS2 games, and coupled with SC running off Unreal Warfare which is a CPU hog even on other platforms, I'd be surprised if R5900 wasn't the bottleneck in that game.

 

[Ug Lee]

Forgive me for dredging up an old, worn out topic, but it's taken me a while to read through it and I'd like to post some observations:

A PAL Xbox can quite easily output a progressive image if you twist its arm hard enough.

The 'removal' of progressive scan for PAL Xbox looks more like a cock-up from Microsoft rather than anything intentional. At least here in Australia, MS were advertising right up to the launch that it would support HDTV resolutions. Launch day comes and people buy their Xboxen + component packs. Shit hits the fan regarding the Chroma Upsampling issue, followed by major issues with getting the games to run in 480p and up. Complaints are filed, and MS respond by recalling the component packs and never mentioning HDTV again. I believe the cock-up involved a lack of communication somewhere down the line - PAL Xbox doesn't output an NTSC signal (out of the box). So how are you going to get it to run in NTSC progressive resolutions?

PS2's 60Hz mode is NTSC standard - hence there are a few PAL PS2 games that offer prog scan...though quite a few have had the feature removed.

Two Xbox titles that come to mind which appear to filter textures bilinearly are Morrowind and Wolfenstein.

MGS2 on Xbox does not run in 30fps all the time during the tanker stage. Infact the slowdown occurs when you're on the deck at the bow of the ship running through the rain.

Yet no one seems to mention swimming through the sunken strut later in the game, which suffers from slowdown far far far far worse than what is seen on the tanker. argh. :?

 

[function]

Actually, I noticed the other day that the back of the PAL Unreal Tournament box had the high definition tv (or whatever it says) box filled in. Wouldnt be any use to me though. Now VGA output, that'd be useful ...

Two Xbox titles that come to mind which appear to filter textures bilinearly are Morrowind and Wolfenstein.

I haven't played either of these games on the Xbox, but given that trilinear on the Xbox is "basically free", and that Wolfenstein runs well with trilinear on less powerful hardware than the Xbox anyway, I'd have to wonder why they left it out.

It could well be the case, but it would just seem like a strange move.

 

[_phil_]

Forgive me for dredging up an old, worn out topic, but it's taken me a while to read through it and I'd like to post some observations:

A PAL Xbox can quite easily output a progressive image if you twist its arm hard enough.

The 'removal' of progressive scan for PAL Xbox looks more like a cock-up from Microsoft rather than anything intentional. At least here in Australia, MS were advertising right up to the launch that it would support HDTV resolutions. Launch day comes and people buy their Xboxen + component packs. Shit hits the fan regarding the Chroma Upsampling issue, followed by major issues with getting the games to run in 480p and up. Complaints are filed, and MS respond by recalling the component packs and never mentioning HDTV again. I believe the cock-up involved a lack of communication somewhere down the line - PAL Xbox doesn't output an NTSC signal (out of the box). So how are you going to get it to run in NTSC progressive resolutions?

PS2's 60Hz mode is NTSC standard - hence there are a few PAL PS2 games that offer prog scan...though quite a few have had the feature removed.

Two Xbox titles that come to mind which appear to filter textures bilinearly are Morrowind and Wolfenstein.

MGS2 on Xbox does not run in 30fps all the time during the tanker stage. Infact the slowdown occurs when you're on the deck at the bow of the ship running through the rain.

Yet no one seems to mention swimming through the sunken strut later in the game, which suffers from slowdown far far far far worse than what is seen on the tanker. argh. :?

Chaaap ? you've got mail !

 

[zurich]

How could PAL Xboxen have 'broken' HDTV support when NTSC Xboxen have been running it just dandy for some time now?

 

[chaphack]

what what? someone called?

dudette, from what i know, PAL software is the problem, not the Xbox hardware. PAL games dont do 480p anyway. Well maybe 480p screwed up some PAL TV initially, and henceforth MS decide to say no to PAL. But hey, it IS PAL we are talking about. I heard that place is some swampering tech pandemonium.

As for MGS2, it is just one frickin game that i believe Xbox version originated from the PC port. So it has some slowdowns, but hey it recreated the other parts faithfully. Its a 90% good port. You also get 480p and 5.1 audio, and i find it a tad sharper and filtered over the PS2 version.

So you guys bitch about one little game and tend to forget about the dozens and dozens of games that LOOK and RUN better on the Xbox? Hmm...hMmmm... :?

 

[_phil_]

perception ... is unquantifiable ,really

 

[Squeak]

I've read somewhere how that cache is 32GB/sec (so it's not faster), but feel free to correct me.

The real number is confidential but even if it's 32GB/s it's still better than GS eDRAm, don't forget that GS is using multiple bus to access VRAM and 48GB/s is the aggregate bandwidth. The bandwith dedicated to textures is something like 9.6GB/s if I recall correctly.

I just read this. Could anyone "in the know" confirm it, or come with an educated guess? It sure would put a nail trough many of the claims of theoretical performance, which have been made about either console if it was true.

One curious, maybe coincidental, relationship I have come across, is that if you multiply PS2s EE to GS bus bandwidth, with the number of texturepipes, then you get texture L2 (buffer) to L1 cache bandwidth (1.2 * 8 = 9.6), the same thing goes for Gamecube (2.6 * 4 = 10.4).
If you do the same on the xbox numbers, you get a ridiculously high number (somewhere in the forties, depending).
If we look at the games that are out now, xbox doesn’t have four times as detailed textures as Gamecube or PS2, not even double that.
Doesn’t xbox use the L2 (I assume that’s the one were talking about, and not the 8Kb L1) cache for other stuff too, like the early z-checking and z-buffer compression, and maybe a lot of other stuff (with all that traffic over that relatively small bus, it would seem to be a good idea with some sort of buffer)?