Provocative comment by Id member about PS2 (and Gamecube)!
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bleh! ERP is not speaking straight. 30mpps!??! How can it be when Xbox is using some old school PC design, does it have the transformation cycle ops per second 2 seconds of the VU EE GS tri-design?
112mil * 2 * 8 pixel ops * 2.5 texel pipelines / 4ns latency + double buffering + 4 loop-back layered textures - BM support buffer @ 64mb ddr 640x480x32 and that leaves about 10-14mpps ingame every game! When you have 4XFSAA, it drops to around 7mpps MAX.
30mpps must just be manipulative numbers. :?
Yeay, thats it! 30mpps is just the peakest of peak performance. I am sure GT4 can reach that peakest of peak too. I think GT4 has at least 33,000 polygons(PEAK!) per car. They look so real. 4000-5000 is just conservative, the Sony way.
112mil * 2 * 8 pixel ops * 2.5 texel pipelines / 4ns latency + double buffering + 4 loop-back layered textures - BM support buffer @ 64mb ddr 640x480x32 and that leaves about 10-14mpps ingame every game! When you have 4XFSAA, it drops to around 7mpps MAX.
30mpps must just be manipulative numbers. :?
Yeay, thats it! 30mpps is just the peakest of peak performance. I am sure GT4 can reach that peakest of peak too. I think GT4 has at least 33,000 polygons(PEAK!) per car. They look so real. 4000-5000 is just conservative, the Sony way.
PC-Engine:
Comparing bechmarks and in-game numbers will give you a very flawed result, as you are making yourself dependant on the developers ability to get performance out of the system. How do you know that the Xbox developer hasn't tapped more of the hardware opposed to a PS2 developer? I gave you indications why your comparasment is flawed - you have not made any attempt to prove that wrong so far (and benchmarks of the like don't cut it).
I'll remind you that we are talking strictly of hardware superiority, so developers competence/ability/motive to not include progressive out as some sort of evidence is moot. The hardware is capable, period. Don't you see how pointless your argument is?
Actually, the bottleneck as far as I know hits in first with the available memory/bandwidth. Still, in some other posts in mainly PS3 threads, Pana I am sure mentioned being a transformation peak on EE at just above 100 tris/sec.
I still don't quite see the point of your entire post though - Why are you comparing specs in the first place? What's the point? What do you hope to achieve?
Taking your words, the best evidence are the games, in which I see areas where PS2 is way more impressive, though much less in others.
PC-Engine said:
Comparing bechmarks and in-game numbers will give you a very flawed result, as you are making yourself dependant on the developers ability to get performance out of the system. How do you know that the Xbox developer hasn't tapped more of the hardware opposed to a PS2 developer? I gave you indications why your comparasment is flawed - you have not made any attempt to prove that wrong so far (and benchmarks of the like don't cut it).
PC-Engine said:
I'll remind you that we are talking strictly of hardware superiority, so developers competence/ability/motive to not include progressive out as some sort of evidence is moot. The hardware is capable, period. Don't you see how pointless your argument is?
PC-Engine said:
Actually, the bottleneck as far as I know hits in first with the available memory/bandwidth. Still, in some other posts in mainly PS3 threads, Pana I am sure mentioned being a transformation peak on EE at just above 100 tris/sec.
I still don't quite see the point of your entire post though - Why are you comparing specs in the first place? What's the point? What do you hope to achieve?
Taking your words, the best evidence are the games, in which I see areas where PS2 is way more impressive, though much less in others.
there u go, Cybamerc, i've edited my initial post so it's clear that it was cut from SOFTWARE. happy now? 
u should think before calling people liars. oh wait, thats asking too much from u.. thinking??? nah!!
we should have a "semantic" board where people like u can go and argue over stupid little commas in the wrong places and stuff like that...
BTW, gonna stay out of the usual PS2vsXbox stuff, which is quite sad to be honest, after all thats been said in the past...
u should think before calling people liars. oh wait, thats asking too much from u.. thinking??? nah!!
we should have a "semantic" board where people like u can go and argue over stupid little commas in the wrong places and stuff like that...
BTW, gonna stay out of the usual PS2vsXbox stuff, which is quite sad to be honest, after all thats been said in the past...
...and may i ask... what's up with Chap? did someone break into his account or something? did he bang his head on the wall REALLY HARD?
chaphack said:Totally agreed with you pal.
u're the one fighting the "battle", little one...
Simon F said:
thats what everyone's been wondering for the last couple of days...
I am not trolling... :?
I am just agreeing/accepting what some of you have said and merely restating them. You others were right and i believe i should spread the rightful spiritual strenght gained to other lost soul like PCEngine.
Please stop calling me a troll and banning.. I stood by the right = bad, now i stand by the left = bad too... what more you want of me?
:? I am just agreeing/accepting what some of you have said and merely restating them. You others were right and i believe i should spread the rightful spiritual strenght gained to other lost soul like PCEngine.
Please stop calling me a troll and banning.. I stood by the right = bad, now i stand by the left = bad too... what more you want of me?
Chap's just gone to full-blown sarcasstic mode, amusing no one but himself, and contributing nothing but hot are and moronicity to the situation.
(I'm discounting the "anvil dropped on his head" theory.)
Meanwhile, a general case could indeed be made for this thread being a huge, confusing pile of crap, but hey. I don't want to see things go dead NOW, as I'd like to see a nice list compiled. One just has to strive REALLY hard to ignore the static. It's gotten much louder of late. -_-
(I'm discounting the "anvil dropped on his head" theory.)
Meanwhile, a general case could indeed be made for this thread being a huge, confusing pile of crap, but hey.
I don't want to see things go dead NOW, as I'd like to see a nice list compiled. One just has to strive REALLY hard to ignore the static. It's gotten much louder of late. -_-Nick Laslett
Regular
According to Adam Billyard Chief Technology Officer at Criterion, Burnout 1 was pushing 15 million polygons/sec on the PS2 back in October 2001.
According to internal SCEE benchmarking done at that time using the 1st iteration of the Performance Analyser, it was the game pushing the most polygons/sec on the hardware at that time.
This caused great embarressment to a number of developers who had shunned the Renderware middleware as not being up to the job.
Here are some other interesting quotes from the recent Edge magazine Equip special on the PS2.
Steve Ellis (Free Radical Design co-founder)
"In Timesplitters 2, we managed to double the performance we achieved with Timesplitters 1. I believe that with some more difficult optimisations and careful planning, at least another 50% increase is possible."
Andrew Perella (Head of Programming at Eutechnyx)
"We hope to push game performance significantly by continuing to do specific PS2 R&D, particularly with respect to making mores use of procedural geometry ability of the Vector Units."
Mike Diskett (Founder member of Mucky Foot)
"When we can actually have the Performance Analyser all the time instead of the occasional week, its going to double the perfromance we can get out of the PS2."
Mike Healey (Senior Programmer at Rebellion)
"I think the Performance Analyser will yield major improvements in performance - we can look forward to much more visually stunning games in the very near future."
Jason Rubin (Naughty Dog co-founder)
Q:How far do you think you're pushing the hardware with Jak II?
"We've got a lot more out of it, but at the same time you're always doing everything you can do at that time. If we do another game we'll get more out of it again. There's a lot more in that system."
Andy Beveridge (SN Systems Director)
"Understanding VU0, is a key part to improving PS2 game performance. Incredibly, most of the first wave of games hardly used VU0 at all! The main bottleneck of many games is the CPU, not the GS, offloading tasks from the CPU MIPS core onto its co-processing Vector units will have a massive impact on overall performance."
You can draw your own conclusions, but it seems clear that a lot of developers that are on their 2nd or 3rd titles for the console believe that there is a lot more they can do.
According to internal SCEE benchmarking done at that time using the 1st iteration of the Performance Analyser, it was the game pushing the most polygons/sec on the hardware at that time.
This caused great embarressment to a number of developers who had shunned the Renderware middleware as not being up to the job.
Here are some other interesting quotes from the recent Edge magazine Equip special on the PS2.
Steve Ellis (Free Radical Design co-founder)
"In Timesplitters 2, we managed to double the performance we achieved with Timesplitters 1. I believe that with some more difficult optimisations and careful planning, at least another 50% increase is possible."
Andrew Perella (Head of Programming at Eutechnyx)
"We hope to push game performance significantly by continuing to do specific PS2 R&D, particularly with respect to making mores use of procedural geometry ability of the Vector Units."
Mike Diskett (Founder member of Mucky Foot)
"When we can actually have the Performance Analyser all the time instead of the occasional week, its going to double the perfromance we can get out of the PS2."
Mike Healey (Senior Programmer at Rebellion)
"I think the Performance Analyser will yield major improvements in performance - we can look forward to much more visually stunning games in the very near future."
Jason Rubin (Naughty Dog co-founder)
Q:How far do you think you're pushing the hardware with Jak II?
"We've got a lot more out of it, but at the same time you're always doing everything you can do at that time. If we do another game we'll get more out of it again. There's a lot more in that system."
Andy Beveridge (SN Systems Director)
"Understanding VU0, is a key part to improving PS2 game performance. Incredibly, most of the first wave of games hardly used VU0 at all! The main bottleneck of many games is the CPU, not the GS, offloading tasks from the CPU MIPS core onto its co-processing Vector units will have a massive impact on overall performance."
You can draw your own conclusions, but it seems clear that a lot of developers that are on their 2nd or 3rd titles for the console believe that there is a lot more they can do.
Of course my friend. I heard insiders that BO3, with the PA, is pushing close to 30mpps(Sony's official figure of 15mpps(IIRC) + textures + whatnot is false) and the whole game looks like another level away from BO2! The polygon count and graphics and all, look much closer to today's PC games. I *heard*(dont quote me) that it is doing BM too.
Amazing piece of silicon again, oh yeay how far thou Emotion Syntheisis goesth, is there no upper hardware limit? What more can we expect out of it? I think as long as we have the PA, it rox!
32mb 4mb vram 150mhz 300mhz 48gb/s 3.2gb/s 1.2gb/s path3-upload CLUT and all are suprisingly "evolving"! Good job. Sony. Evolving Synthesis?
Now you critics will want to say, those 2nd/3rd/4th gen games dont really look/run 50%/2X/significantly better BUT i assure you that there are more limits to push with the PS2. I might be no developer, but its true. Its all about programming the VUs. 8)
I cant wait till every PS2 games support 480p and quality mipmapping! Be patient and it will cometh! Who knows Ps2 might finally be able to do DOT3 in 1-2 passes?
Amazing piece of silicon again, oh yeay how far thou Emotion Syntheisis goesth, is there no upper hardware limit? What more can we expect out of it? I think as long as we have the PA, it rox!
32mb 4mb vram 150mhz 300mhz 48gb/s 3.2gb/s 1.2gb/s path3-upload CLUT and all are suprisingly "evolving"!
Good job. Sony. Evolving Synthesis?Now you critics will want to say, those 2nd/3rd/4th gen games dont really look/run 50%/2X/significantly better BUT i assure you that there are more limits to push with the PS2. I might be no developer, but its true. Its all about programming the VUs. 8)
I cant wait till every PS2 games support 480p and quality mipmapping!
Be patient and it will cometh! Who knows Ps2 might finally be able to do DOT3 in 1-2 passes?chaphack said:What makes you think i have not contributed to the topic? It depends on whether you want to read into it and accept the facts or carry on living in that make-believe world.
I was referring specifically to the past dozen+ posts of yours where you've been acting like a complete twit and not tiring of it though you fool no one and just throw more fuel on the useless trolling end. I'm sure everyone else already has a general opinion of you and all the regulars--heck, maybe even me at this point! So it's not like there's anything to fool or anything to reinforce. And it's not even remotely deniable that you've been a complete schmuck since right before your "what is this sarkasm?" post. (If you ended it right there, it would have been your "usual self" and not nearly so annoying, rather than complete trolling and flamebait. But for whatever obscure reasons you have for doing anything you decided to stretch it out for another dozen posts and even slap down a foot or two of images to spam things further.)
At any rate, since you seem to have broken from your reverie now, be a nice chap and KEEP IT THAT WAY. (Oops, look like I posted that too soon. You got one in after Nick's anyway. -_- )
All things considered, this IS a 23-page topic. The "rails" have been in more of a "mesh" pattern for long time, where people freely jump from one 90-degree tangent to another at will.
Still, the "ambient noise" hit mosh-pit levels a while back.
Still, the "ambient noise" hit mosh-pit levels a while back.
There is nothing derailing.
What is said has been said before. At times history seem to be repeating itself, only now with different parties. Ironically funny but i digress. Some of you just need to live with reality and move on. Dont ignore that, be cool and accept it.
Ps2 is the No.1 console today, there is no need for hardcore defensive mode ultra. What is, will be is. Ps2 might do one or two things cool but admittedly more could/should have been done with the hardware.
Visually speaking, its a hard stretch to say that its "comparable" to the latest consoles. AFAIC see it, Ps2's best, is at least, a step behind Xbox's best. Nothing wrong with that, being a 18mths older hardware, but thats that.
ANYWAY i am bored with this age old topic. Good luck with your "discussions". Carry on with your feel good topic.
What is said has been said before. At times history seem to be repeating itself, only now with different parties. Ironically funny
but i digress. Some of you just need to live with reality and move on. Dont ignore that, be cool and accept it. Ps2 is the No.1 console today, there is no need for hardcore defensive mode ultra. What is, will be is. Ps2 might do one or two things cool but admittedly more could/should have been done with the hardware.
Visually speaking, its a hard stretch to say that its "comparable" to the latest consoles. AFAIC see it, Ps2's best, is at least, a step behind Xbox's best. Nothing wrong with that, being a 18mths older hardware, but thats that.
ANYWAY i am bored with this age old topic. Good luck with your "discussions". Carry on with your feel good topic.
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