Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[Docwiz]

A fanboy fantasy of mine would be to have a Hardware Ray Tracer on board durango. I tried a few demos on my system and it ran slow (CPU based), but would love to get something like this. Yes, I know it won't happen, but I can dream.

 

[XpiderMX]

This is from the Herb Sutter blog (architect at Microsoft):

http://herbsutter.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/temp1.png

2005-20??: Several big cores (Xenon?)
2012-20??: Lots of smaller cores (Jaguar cores as in Kryptos?)

 

[bkilian]

I think I just figured it out:

Hi Fidelity PC Speaker

The bleeps will be glorious!

Yep, you win, it's a high fidelity PC speaker. I know most of you don't even have a speaker at all in your PC

 

[Mobius1aic]

\7\
If I was a Trekkie, I'd probably break it down arguing that Microsoft seems to strive for a perfectly synchronized BORG Collective while SONY likes to keep their stuff way closer to the United Federation of Planets ...

Awesome

 

[Barbarian]

How much more demanding is decoding XMA streams over MP3 streams?

Will there be a requirement or push for developers to use that DSP, next-gen? I know it wan't really used this gen.

A hardware decoder is a huge plus. It makes no sense to waste general purpose CPU/GPU on fixed-function-yet-always-necessary tasks like this.
I clearly remember the massive pain it was to get MP3 decoding running on SPUs in the early PS3 dev days. I believe some of the launch/early titles went with uncompressed or ADPCM audio for that exact reason (at the expense of wasted memory or quality loss respectively).

 

[Osamar]

Some pages before there was a question about the possibility of upgraded instructions Jaguar CPU.
What could be more easier to do. Add instructions to a CPU or design a DSP-Math copro and add to the SoC.
What are the advantages or disadvantages of each option?

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

A hardware decoder is a huge plus. It makes no sense to waste general purpose CPU/GPU on fixed-function-yet-always-necessary tasks like this.
I clearly remember the massive pain it was to get MP3 decoding running on SPUs in the early PS3 dev days. I believe some of the launch/early titles went with uncompressed or ADPCM audio for that exact reason (at the expense of wasted memory or quality loss respectively).

I can definitely understand the use/purpose of using a DSP. I just didn't think it would be a concern, next-gen. I read a audio tech article, on Gamasutra, saying one SPU could decode 400 mp3 streams in real-time. So, I didn't think it would avoid using much processing power going the DSP route maintaining 7.1 LPCM. Well, the memory reduction I can definitely see being particularly useful.

 

[DieH@rd]

How expensive is Vita SoC? Can they just slap that on PS4 mobo and use it for OS and low power workloads [to comply with standby energy laws of EU/US/others]?

 

[Bagel seed]

Yep, you win, it's a high fidelity PC speaker. I know most of you don't even have a speaker at all in your PC

Glad to hear that. Hopefully the speculation will finally end now

How expensive is Vita SoC? Can they just slap that on PS4 mobo and use it for OS and low power workloads [to comply with standby energy laws of EU/US/others]?

If the rumors of 2 reserved Jaguar cores for the 720 OS is true, I assume PS4 would do the same. Then GPU in the APU will take care of the low powered OS graphics tasks.

The lower the amount of differing chips they need to put the system together the better.

 

[N2O]

When bring back 2 cores for OS rumor again?

 

[tunafish]

I actually expect that if two cores of 8 are reserved, one of them is just disabled for yields.

Console chips cannot sell the parts with defects as lesser models, so if you leave any resource fully enabled, it means that any defects in it lead to entire chips being tossed. The very minimum I expect to see is one core and one cu disabled in every chip.

So 8 cores in the design, one for os, one for yields. End result is as many threads as the last time around.

 

[Bagel seed]

It's certainly possible for yield reasons. But I'd expect the need for more dedicated threads this time for better multitasking. ie. Multiple logged in users, remote desktop...

 

[XpiderMX]

Is too dificult to put the Xbox 360 SoC inside and use it for backward compatibility and for OS?

 

[lefizz]

Too difficult I dont think.

Too expensive almost certainly, and would make the boxes a lot bigger to allow for air flow over another heat sink fan combo. Yet more expense.

In short it's not going to happen

 

[nunomoreira]

Is too dificult to put the Xbox 360 SoC inside and use it for backward compatibility and for OS?

it´s too expensive, dye cost and motherboard complexity.

 

[JasonLD]

Wondering what is happening with this thread. Many posts just disappeared. Did some sensitive info leak here?

 

[McHuj]

Some pages before there was a question about the possibility of upgraded instructions Jaguar CPU.
What could be more easier to do. Add instructions to a CPU or design a DSP-Math copro and add to the SoC.
What are the advantages or disadvantages of each option?

IMO, it isn't so much the complexity of adding instructions, but moving the work elsewhere to a more efficient processor. A DSP will be a simple in-order core, probably clocked under 500 MHz and may only be fixed point (although I don't know if modern audio DSP's have moved on to floating point yet or not). It's going to be a tiny core in comparison to a CPU core. For DSP type work loads, it's power efficiency can be orders of magnitude better than the CPU core. I'd guess that AMD/MS would just license a core from a DSP company and they wouldn't be reinventing the wheel.

Chances are the DSP will execute out of it's own cache or local memory space. So not only do you get the benefit of off-loading all the compute to it, you're not polluting the main core's caches with that data either. It's a win-win, imo.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wondering what is happening with this thread. Many posts just disappeared. Did some sensitive info leak here?

Odd question. If sensitive info was posted and deleted, your question would only prompt it to be posted again!

There is plenty of ongoing pruning happening as people go OT, with the occasional ban as well for those still unable to comprehend the difference between talking about next-gen hardware and how great/horrible the next-gen consoles will be.

 

[DeanoC]

IMO, it isn't so much the complexity of adding instructions, but moving the work elsewhere to a more efficient processor. A DSP will be a simple in-order core, probably clocked under 500 MHz and may only be fixed point (although I don't know if modern audio DSP's have moved on to floating point yet or not). It's going to be a tiny core in comparison to a CPU core. For DSP type work loads, it's power efficiency can be orders of magnitude better than the CPU core. I'd guess that AMD/MS would just license a core from a DSP company and they wouldn't be reinventing the wheel.

Chances are the DSP will execute out of it's own cache or local memory space. So not only do you get the benefit of off-loading all the compute to it, you're not polluting the main core's caches with that data either. It's a win-win, imo.

TI High end DSP have fast float engines last time I checked. You can get hybrid designs pretty easy now, something like a Cortex Mx with a DSP engine + decompression unit could be pretty tiny and very capable...

 

[Heinrich4]

A good summary of many speculations.

http://www.examiner.com/article/rumored-xbox-720-and-ps4-specs-revealed-through-new-source

PS4 "Orbis"
- AMD x86 3.2GHz APU Solution (Jaguar/Steamroller), 4 cores (2 core pairs), [Higher Clock than X720/Durango]
- Maybe AMD 8000 series GPU solution [Customised Solution Possibly utilising GPU + APU combo]
- 2-4GB GDDR5
- Launch Fall 2013/Early 2014

Explanation: PS4 has a higher clock, but less cores and is using an APU solution (CPU & GPU elements combined onto a single chip). The PS4 has less RAM but is using faster GDDR ram, so the overall performance should be a wash.

Xbox 720 "Durango"
- AMD x86 Jaguar 1.6GHZ 8-Core [Targeting one core being dedicated for OS tasks]
- AMD 8000 series GPU
- ESRAM on the GPU (unknown amount)
- 8GB Ram DDR3, [1.5GB of RAM likely reserved for the operating system]
- Launch 2013

Explanation: 720 has a lower clock, but more cores. 720 has more but SLOWER RAM. DDR3 RAM is usually good for things like multitasking etc....It is expected to be based on Windows 8 as well.

Note: GDDR ram is more suitable for Graphics Processing (In PS4), and DDR3 is more suitable for OS Tasks (720). It is expected that the 720 may need some sort of ES/ED Ram to compensate. Basically, don't get caught up in the RAM size but the RAM type.