arijoytunir
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Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech
- Thread starter Acert93
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You are right. If one keeps it down to two stacks, one doesn't need a lot of space (can be arranged one one side of the SoC die). I was more thinking of the maximal configuration with 4 stacks on two sides (and still overestimated the needed area, when I look at the pictures with that prototype APU/GPU on an interposers with two DRAM stacks again, one can pack it quite tightly).
Actually, I described the rough concept behind HBM/WideIO2. WideIO uses afaik four 128bit channels per stack/device running at 266 MHz SDR signaling to save on area and power for a high speed serial interface (one needs this twice, on the memory die or the logic layer of a HMC and on the SoC again, WideIO/HBM tries to get around that by "directly" transfering the wider internal accesses over wide and slower SDR interfaces). WideIO2/HBM is supposed to double the width (to 1024 bit, 4x256Bit) and upping the speed considerably. It lines up quite nicely with the 1024bit (4x256Bit) at 750MHz SDR signaling I made up from thin air (taking the width and speed of the DRAM arrays of typical GDDR5 as base, HBM would be made by "removing" the serial IO parts). The DRAM is capable of that and a preliminary or minimal implementation of the upcoming WideIO2 standard could probably be used already.
(((interference)))
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Actually, I was talking to bgassassin on here (after we figured out what GPUs were in the leaked devkit) and he got those two pieces of info from different people and the one who reported 1+ for Durango could well have been trying not to be too specific.
We know for a fact that the Durango alpha kits have either a 2TF or 2.25TF GPU in them.
lherre has said Durango is 'more beast' than Orbis and the results of IGNs developer survey also show most devs prefer working on Durango than Orbis and think it will win next gen.
And Sony is really not in a position to break the bank on hardware this time around, it isn't Kutaragi's Sony anymore - neither financially or culturally (as can be seen by the Vita).
arijoytunir
Regular
if so then will 3rd party studios who make games for both platforms favour xbox3 with better visuals ,etc ? in my opinion they will not make two radically different versions of their software visually and it seems that the extra power of durango compared to orbis will only be used by 1st party studios which are far less compared to sony .
Dont necessarily have a dog in this fight, but lherre also told me via pm that more RAM, lesser GPU was a good summation of Durango vs Orbis (when I asked). That was about six months ago too.
People love to qoute lherre saying Durango more beast, it may well be, but I got that conflicting info from him.
They'll run the same visuals at better framerates and IQ. Cross-platform engines will be pretty scalable, so a significant difference in performance will allow Durango to run with better lighting too. It'll be exactly the same as PC, with the better GPU giving pretty much effortless advantages to the developers, and if both are on the same tech level, none will see software features dropped due to minimum standard. That is, both being DX11 or 12, software will be written to that standard instead of a lower standard failing to utilise features of the other console.
In short, one platform being more powerful than the other will show readily if they are both the same basic architecture. That doesn't help us solve the question of what's in the boxes, but I do understand a fair few people are incapable of separating the intellectual investigation from their interests in the business of competition and how boxes will or won't be 'better'.
arijoytunir
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DoctorFouad
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I dont know what to say about the Vita, but it was and is still considered a very powerful mobile platform, so I am not so sure if Vita is any indication for a change in sony's vision regarding console hardware.
I will ask a question, where a good answer could give us an indication if sony changed or not their vision : PSP at its time (representing the ps3 era ?) VS Vita at its time (representing the new ps4 era ?), which console was more advanced technologically ?
They were both the most powerful handheld devices of their era. The difference with Vita is there's a far bigger mobile market that refreshes hardware constantly, so it's been matched and overtaken in a way PSP wasn't for much of its life. The other major difference is Vita uses a more conventional core versus PSP, which shows less focus on custom hardware - something we already know is happening with PS4.
So the "3M netlist" related about this?
From semiaccurate
http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173714#post173714
From semiaccurate
http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173714#post173714
DoctorFouad
Newcomer
I'm not sure I understand where you're going with your comment? N2O was mainly talking about memory technology. BTW, that last semiaccurate link in N2O's post is pure bogus as far as I can tell.
Wow. 600mm2 die size, and the main memory have to be produced at East Fishkill... 299!!
Maybe it's a 600mm2 interposer, that would make more sense. But I read there were issues with large interposers because they were too fragile to handle. I don't know if 600 is considered "too large".
Maybe it's a 600mm2 interposer, that would make more sense. But I read there were issues with large interposers because they were too fragile to handle. I don't know if 600 is considered "too large".
600mm^2 would be right at the reticle-mask limit for lithography tools.
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edit: Thought I recalled earlier discussion:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=57353
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edit: Thought I recalled earlier discussion:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=57353
What about organic interposers, the laminate stuff? It's crude, but if it's only to connect the memory to the SoC, they can do 55mmx55mm, which would allow a 600mm2 die plus it's memory.
I can't help thinking that there no such thing as a good-die anymore, it's always a mostly-good-die, where all chips have defects because we can no longer make large perfect dies. If the whole chip has plenty of Shaders and Cores, and all the fuse to disable non-working ones, maybe a 600mm2 die with lots of disabled stuff would be less expensive to make than a 400mm2 where half the dies are thrown away?
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