Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[szymku]

The PS3 isn't using a 128bit bus--it is using 2x128bit busses (XDR, GDDR3)

Actually it's using one 128 bit bus (GDDR3) and one 64 bit (XDR)

 

[Betanumerical]

Actually it's using one 128 bit bus (GDDR3) and one 64 bit (XDR)

Isn't the 64bit XDR equivalent to the 128bit DDR3 because the XDR is QDR whilst the DDR, is DDR?.

 

[liolio]

As the possibility of systems including SSD is often discussed here a link to the test of ps3 including one:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2332520,00.asp
Discuss

 

[Acert93]

Actually it's using one 128 bit bus (GDDR3) and one 64 bit (XDR)

Thanks for the correction! Been a while since I looked at the specs :smile:

 

[Crossbar]

As the possibility of systems including SSD is often discussed here a link to the test of ps3 including one:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2332520,00.asp
Discuss

Nice figures but not much to discuss really. If any console manufacturer decides to use flash memory intead of a HDD it will hardly be in the form of a COTS SSD. They will likely solder the flash straight onto the PCB and not use SATA or whatever HDD protocol to control it and therefore may have very different performance figures.

 

[AlNom]

Isn't the 64bit XDR equivalent to the 128bit DDR3 because the XDR is QDR whilst the DDR, is DDR?.

Depends on your point of view.

1) 8 bytes * 800MHz * 4
2) 16 bytes * 800 * 2

I'd say the first is the more accurate per definition rather than saying that 64-bit XDR is necessarily equivalent to 128-bit GDDR3.

 

[assen]

Nice figures but not much to discuss really. If any console manufacturer decides to use flash memory intead of a HDD it will hardly be in the form of a COTS SSD. They will likely solder the flash straight onto the PCB and not use SATA or whatever HDD protocol to control it and therefore may have very different performance figures.

If it's only in the low-end SKU is with flash, while the high-end has a huge HDD, it will make sense to keep them under a unified (IDE) interface.

 

[Crossbar]

If it's only in the low-end SKU is with flash, while the high-end has a huge HDD, it will make sense to keep them under a unified (IDE) interface.

I don´t rule out that they will keep a SATA interface in the low end units as well to allow easy storage upgrade while keeping the flash as a fast partition.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If it's only in the low-end SKU is with flash, while the high-end has a huge HDD, it will make sense to keep them under a unified (IDE) interface.

I'd expect internal flash to be common even on HDD equipped machines.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

If it's only in the low-end SKU is with flash, while the high-end has a huge HDD, it will make sense to keep them under a unified (IDE) interface.

Meh, keep the flash in both, use it to boot quickly or something

 

[Megadrive1988]

In 2002-2004 (before Xenon spec was leaked in mid-04) I had expected all the then-upcoming consoles to use 256-bit bus. So did many others, but we were wrong. I think though, that at least Microsoft & Sony next-gen consoles will finally move away from 128-bit bus.

If they want to move around massive amounts of data compared to current-gen (which will be required for any kind of generational leap) then 256-bit bus + very fast high-bandwidth memory (allowing hundreds of GB/sec) + incredibly high-bandwidth eDRAM (allowing TB/sec) is going to be needed, one way or another.

 

[kyetech]

In 2002-2004 (before Xenon spec was leaked in mid-04) I had expected all the then-upcoming consoles to use 256-bit bus. So did many others, but we were wrong. I think though, that at least Microsoft & Sony next-gen consoles will finally move away from 128-bit bus.

If they want to move around massive amounts of data compared to current-gen (which will be required for any kind of generational leap) then 256-bit bus + very fast high-bandwidth memory (allowing hundreds of GB/sec) + incredibly high-bandwidth eDRAM (allowing TB/sec) is going to be needed, one way or another.

I k now youve been taling about this 400+ of GB bandwidth thing for ages now, but if you look at what can be achieved in a 100GB of bandwidth now at super high res, combined with the fact that new technologies are becoming even more efficient with bandwidth usage, more internal cache, better compression systems, more efficient rendering (Tile based deffered), etc etc.

Its still as hard now as it was then to think we will get more than 200GBs of bandwidth (no edram this time)

I still think itl be around 170GBs tops. No edram, for reasons stated before about how edram limits the flexability of how rendering can be implemtnted.

 

[assen]

I don´t rule out that they will keep a SATA interface in the low end units as well to allow easy storage upgrade while keeping the flash as a fast partition.

Flash is not magically fast. Fast SSDs are fast because they include expensive controllers. Cheap SSDs (and consumer-level flash cards) are VERY slow at small random writes. (Not that you would expect that to happen with a game, but I wouldn't expect the install times of some PC games and some PS3 mandatory installations, so there's always incompetence to take into account.)

 

[Blazkowicz]

yes, I was baffled by my cheap 4GB USB drive, dipping at 70KB/s copying lots of small files! and it's branded as "readyboost" compatible.

 

[assen]

yes, I was baffled by my cheap 4GB USB drive, dipping at 70KB/s copying lots of small files! and it's branded as "readyboost" compatible.

If I understand correctly, cheap flash drives write a minimum of 128 KB for each write operation. If you do lots of 1 KB operations, you'll end up with a 128x overhead. If ReadyBoost writes 128 KB at a time, this would be no penalty.
If a game precaches to the flash in 1-2 MB chunks, flash would be no penalty. If a game dumps its unpacked assets folder with 15k+ files, it would probably be slower than a HDD.

 

[Crossbar]

Flash is not magically fast. Fast SSDs are fast because they include expensive controllers. Cheap SSDs (and consumer-level flash cards) are VERY slow at small random writes. (Not that you would expect that to happen with a game, but I wouldn't expect the install times of some PC games and some PS3 mandatory installations, so there's always incompetence to take into account.)

If you have the freedom to organise your flash memory on the PCB you can easily make them work in parallel which help performance and it doesn´t require a particulary advanced controller. Some DRAM cache would also help speed up small random writes for flash with bad write characteristics. Anyway random reads is where flash excels compared to HDDs.

@Ostepop: A fast boot partition would be really nice. :smile:

 

[wco81]

My PS3 boots fast enough, now that it doesn't have to boot from optical media.

If it's a tradeoff between larger-capacity HDDs and SSDs, I'd rather take the former, especially if we can install and run games off the HDD in the next-gen.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Some interesting info about the 'Hedgehog Engine' for Sonic Unleashed on current-gen 360/PS3

http://blogs.ign.com/SEGA_SonicUnleashed/2008/10/23/104478/

The “Hedgehog Engine” and its visual quality

We also have “stunning visual beauty” as a major theme in Sonic Unleashed. I was not interested in making “average-quality” visuals at all. For me, the target for visual quality was to be on par with pre-rendered CG animation and I wanted to achieve that goal in this title. Now with high-end hardware such as Xbox 360 and PlayStation3, it’s the right time to be able to achieve this goal.

Back in 2005, I was able to see new games from some other studios for Xbox360 and PlayStation3 and I remember always feeling that something was missing. I thought that though it was true that they looked better than past-gen games, I still felt something was missing. They were doing things with Shadow Map, Normal Map, HDR… shaders and everything. So okay, the lighting may have been richer… but was not blended enough. Things just looked flat as a whole. I thought the users’ expectation was much higher. So we knew we needed graphics that reached the “pre-rendered CG animation” level.

So I started thinking about what is needed to achieve this. What does pre-rendered CGs have that game graphics lighting doesn’t? I went on to make it a habit to observe many games, a lot of pre-rendered graphics and real-life scenes as well. As a result, I came to the conclusion that the effect of light reflecting from one object to another was what was completely lacking in many gaming graphics. I realized that this was what I felt was “missing.” This is a concept called “Global Illumination” in the field of pre-rendered CG.

After much struggle, we finally developed a Renderer that calculates Global Illumination by our 100% original algorithm. To cover the vast amounts of calculation that need to be processed, we also improvised a system that connects 100 PCs for the team to distribute the work load, which enabled us to complete all the lighting calculations for an action stage which goes as long as 10~20Km in 2 or 3 days.

At the same time, we developed a technology called Light Field, which is used to ensure that the lightings on Sonic, enemies and objects are naturally blended to the background under the Global Illumination environment.

The result of Global Illumination and Light Field produced brilliant results. Graphics at the quality which were only a dream just a few years ago started to come alive before my eyes. I remember watching the prototype graphics with my background and character artists as their eyes started to glisten as they looked at the screen with such intensity. That’s when I became sure of our success.

Hmmmmm....

Imagine how far beyond this developers will be able to take realtime graphics on the next Xbox, the next Wii and PS4. Imagine how much closer to pre-rendered CG that next-gen console games will be able to be. Well, provided that next-gen consoles get some newer technology that is more than just merely a bigger helping of polys & higher-res textures, native 1080p, etc, added on to what 360/PS3 already do.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

After much struggle, we finally developed a Renderer that calculates Global Illumination by our 100% original algorithm. To cover the vast amounts of calculation that need to be processed, we also improvised a system that connects 100 PCs for the team to distribute the work load, which enabled us to complete all the lighting calculations for an action stage which goes as long as 10~20Km in 2 or 3 days.

So they're using pre-baked GI? And he thinks this is new?!

 

[Megadrive1988]

So they're using pre-baked GI? And he thinks this is new?!

Pre-baked is the phrase I was trying to think of.

Hopefully next-gen consoles will have the power and/or features necessary to accomplish at least some level of GI realtime.