Predict: Next gen console tech (10th generation edition) [2028+]

We are arguing about fixed-function vs. programmable hardware. You are conflating hardware fixed function blocks with proprietary software algorithms that make use of those boxes. The hardware boxes that ML upscaling uses are generic matrix crunchers. In fact this is one of the best examples of a solid idiom to harden in hardware. Similar story with frame interpolation -- there is no "hardware implementation" of frame generation. The hardware box is the optical flow engine, which is a fairly generic idiom, although arguably less useful than matrix crunchers as of today. Like I said, some things will stick, others won't. I just can't grok your argument about "control over modifying the neural network" -- that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
There's an implicated connection between the two utilities that I didn't think needed to be spelled out explicitly. Matrix/optical flow hardware acceleration is hardly what anyone might describe to be 'generic' in the truest sense of the term ...
As I've stated in the past, I am a huge champion of general purpose computing. But general purpose computing was amazing due to the exponential pace of Moore's Law. That's dead, son. So we have to accept some specialization.
We're about to become even more general purpose with technologies like nanite doing software rasterization on the horizon in spite of the slow down in hardware complexity evolution so who's to say we can't do away with other specialized hardware like RT/tensor cores in the future ?
This is very defeatist. Nobody has a crystal ball. But if you don't take informed risks, the world will move on without you. Make mistakes. Fall down, pick yourself up.
The future might be simpler than you think it is and that could very well involve taking the path of least resistance. "Taking risks" doesn't necessarily mean using an antithetical approach (special hardware) to combat the wider trend (general purpose). Not only may the blowback be severe but you can cause a regression in the industry ...
 
There's an implicated connection between the two utilities that I didn't think needed to be spelled out explicitly.
What does the ownership model of the NN weights have to do with fixed-function vs. general-purpose hardware?

Matrix/optical flow hardware acceleration is hardly what anyone might describe to be 'generic' in the truest sense of the term ...
I'll concede that I was overly generous to optical flow, it's fairly niche.
Matrix acceleration is absolutely generic today. This is widely accepted by the broad computer architecture community.
"In the truest sense of the term" even FP32 scalar arithmetic units are dedicated accelerators. Why not have 1-bit INT units and let programmers string them together? In fact, why not have LUTs? It's because FP32 units are a common idiom that makes sense to bake into hardware. You can expand that to AVX, vector FMAs, etc. etc. For current and emerging workloads, matrix crunchers are the same way.

We're about to become even more general purpose with technologies like nanite doing software rasterization on the horizon in spite of the slow down in hardware complexity evolution
Yes, nanite is amazing. It's going to replace hardware rasterizers that have served us for *decades*. You are arguing that those hardware rasterizers should never have been built 20 years back in anticipation of a hypothetical nanite that may or may not have arrived 20 years later.

so who's to say we can't do away with other specialized hardware like RT/tensor cores in the future ?
Absolutely, it's possible. How far into the future though? Turing launched in 2018 and it's coming up on its 6-year anniversary. There may be a time when programmable hw becomes fast enough that the fixed blocks can be discarded. If and when that happens, the hardware approach will have served its purpose. As it always has.

The future might be simpler than you think it is and that could very well involve taking the path of least resistance.
"Might be". "Could very well". All hypotheticals when today we can play Cyberpunk and Alan Wake 2.
Just try and apply your philosophy for a second to other matters. Path of least resistance would stifle innovation in so many fields.

"Taking risks" doesn't necessarily mean using an antithetical approach (special hardware) to combat the wider trend (general purpose).
Your perception here is wrong. Wider trend today *is* specialization. If you haven't, please attend an ISCA or at least read some papers from the past 10 years. The challenge is to apply specialization judiciously. It's not going to be perfect. There will be hits and flops. But it's the current name of the game.
 
That's why the custom hardware should be something proven as something devs will use, such as ML upscaling and frame interpolation, and BVH management, and IO acceleration. Look at mobile chips and their many functional units - you get the right ones, you save a truck load of general purpose silicon to do the same work.

And a truck load of power too! Phones again are perhaps the best example, but if you look at something like pathtracing in a PC game, a GPU with really solid hardware ray/triangle acceleration can get the same or better performance for less than half the power consumption of a GPU that uses shaders to do it. Obviously there are a lot of other factors in there too, but broadly, custom hardware is saving a ton of power.

As we run into limits on transistor scaling and cost, I'd guess that power becomes a more precious resource to use judiciously across a console than ever.

We're about to become even more general purpose with technologies like nanite doing software rasterization on the horizon in spite of the slow down in hardware complexity evolution so who's to say we can't do away with other specialized hardware like RT/tensor cores in the future ?

The future might be simpler than you think it is and that could very well involve taking the path of least resistance. "Taking risks" doesn't necessarily mean using an antithetical approach (special hardware) to combat the wider trend (general purpose). Not only may the blowback be severe but you can cause a regression in the industry ...

The future becomes more uncertain the further out you look, but in terms of a next gen console, for which final hardware decisions may be made this year or next, I think we can make some assumptions:

- RT is likely to become a larger part of graphics processing loads
- RT power consumption needs to be minimised
- Upscaling / reconstruction is a key technology
- The trend is towards demanding higher quality upscaling from lower native resolutions

So far, hardware tailored towards RT support is far more performant at RT while using less power. Also as things stand, MLAA supported by tensor cores (or whatever Intel call them) is able to produce far higher quality outputs from highly scaled buffers (4:1 or more) than either temporal upscaling or simplified MLAA models on general purpose shaders (Intel DP4a XeSS).

As things stand I think it would be crazy for a console vendor to not be looking into spending silicon in these areas to get performance increases, reduced power consumption, and improved quality final output.

How things will stand 10 or 20 years from now I dunno though.
 
What does the ownership model of the NN weights have to do with fixed-function vs. general-purpose hardware?
Have you considered that console vendors are petty enough to have different gfx APIs despite featuring the EXACT SAME hardware vendor ? What's stopping them to say that they won't do the same with AI upscaling ? Is it really worthwhile to implement hardware support given the potential amount of redundant effort that may ensue thereafter ?
I'll concede that I was overly generous to optical flow, it's fairly niche.
Matrix acceleration is absolutely generic today. This is widely accepted by the broad computer architecture community.
"In the truest sense of the term" even FP32 scalar arithmetic units are dedicated accelerators. Why not have 1-bit INT units and let programmers string them together? In fact, why not have LUTs? It's because FP32 units are a common idiom that makes sense to bake into hardware. You can expand that to AVX, vector FMAs, etc. etc. For current and emerging workloads, matrix crunchers are the same way.
How does matrix hardware help with control flow (loops/conditional statements) or general computation (algebraic expressions, boolean logic, etc.) and how does it improve data structures (arrays/linked lists/trees/etc) or enable other algorithms (searching/sorting/permutation/optimizations/etc) besides the problems they were specifically designed for ?

At least vector extensions can have widespread applications on some of these general topics so how can you make the argument that matrix hardware have a similar level of reach ?
Yes, nanite is amazing. It's going to replace hardware rasterizers that have served us for *decades*. You are arguing that those hardware rasterizers should never have been built 20 years back in anticipation of a hypothetical nanite that may or may not have arrived 20 years later.
Back then the game industry was *A LOT* more reactive with some patterns of which became heavily ingrained into common practices as an unintended consequence that we're slowly starting to correct ...

Just because some ideas lasted a while due to inertia doesn't mean that they were ultimately great ideas. We shouldn't give into such short-sighted thoughts based on their initial/on-going momentum ...
"Might be". "Could very well". All hypotheticals when today we can play Cyberpunk and Alan Wake 2.
Just try and apply your philosophy for a second to other matters. Path of least resistance would stifle innovation in so many fields.
The tech demos of tomorrow won't necessarily feature similar technical practices from tech demos of today ...

Do these "innovations" matter in the long run if it becomes obsolete ?
Your perception here is wrong. Wider trend today *is* specialization. If you haven't, please attend an ISCA or at least read some papers from the past 10 years. The challenge is to apply specialization judiciously. It's not going to be perfect. There will be hits and flops. But it's the current name of the game.
What's a trend in one domain (ML) does not mean that the same circumstances will apply in another domain (computer graphics). Implementing tons of redundant hardware is not what I would describe in concept as "judicious" ...
The future becomes more uncertain the further out you look, but in terms of a next gen console, for which final hardware decisions may be made this year or next, I think we can make some assumptions:

- RT is likely to become a larger part of graphics processing loads
- RT power consumption needs to be minimised
- Upscaling / reconstruction is a key technology
- The trend is towards demanding higher quality upscaling from lower native resolutions

So far, hardware tailored towards RT support is far more performant at RT while using less power. Also as things stand, MLAA supported by tensor cores (or whatever Intel call them) is able to produce far higher quality outputs from highly scaled buffers (4:1 or more) than either temporal upscaling or simplified MLAA models on general purpose shaders (Intel DP4a XeSS).

As things stand I think it would be crazy for a console vendor to not be looking into spending silicon in these areas to get performance increases, reduced power consumption, and improved quality final output.

How things will stand 10 or 20 years from now I dunno though.
Ironic how you mentioned Intel when their flagship discrete graphics product features twice the amount of die area in comparison to their closest competitor that doesn't attempt to address many of your crucial points ...

I don't think you can comprehend the profound impact of implementing tons of specialized hardware from a hardware complexity perspective. If things were truly that simple for hardware vendors then many of them wouldn't really bat an eye about spending the hardware logic on these features if their cost was trivial but that's not the nature of the beast that you seem to think it is. The down to earth reality is that integrated logic is becoming more of a premium as time goes on, console vendors will feel the pinch even more since their entire business relies on delivering high value per cost ...

You might think it's unreasonable for console vendors to not desire improvement upon those areas but if that path involves doubling their die sizes or incur a significant hardware implementation cost then they might prefer to not give into the those black holes ...
 
Do these "innovations" matter in the long run if it becomes obsolete ?
You realise you are citing every argument in favour of Larrabee, right? ;)

We had the same arguments over whether the consoles should add RTRT hardware or rely on software, pointing to exciting software solutions. Those software solutions are faster but can't compete, so RTRT hardware is totally necessary.

I don't think you can comprehend the profound impact of implementing tons of specialized hardware from a hardware complexity perspective. If things were truly that simple for hardware vendors then many of them wouldn't really bat an eye about spending the hardware logic on these features if their cost was trivial
Except the implementation isn't. If you have custom hardware and your rivals don't, it sits idle. I remember my mate buying a PC card in the 90s with 'hardware scrolling'. Never got used in anything. the PC space mostly supports the lowest common denominator. The cosole space will use everything available (we hope. Modern economics might bit cutting back on that).

And how does your argument fit with mobile vendors who add numerous accelerators and processors and functional blocks into their SOCs? Their need for performance and efficiency is greater than consoles and they have moved very much towards specialisation over generalisation.

The down to earth reality is that integrated logic is becoming more of a premium as time goes on, console vendors will feel the pinch even more since their entire business relies on delivering high value per cost ...
Which is achieved more with specialised silicon than general purpose. Every console comes with hardware dedicated to video compression because it's a lot more efficient than doing that in general purpose shaders. This line of yours is exactly the reason for more specialisation because you get more performance and efficiency from specalisation!
You might think it's unreasonable for console vendors to not desire improvement upon those areas but if that path involves doubling their die sizes or incur a significant hardware implementation cost then they might prefer to not give into the those black holes ...
They can't double their die size. They have a fixed size and either spend that budget on general purpose or more specialised functions. The more they spend on specialised hardware, the less flexible performance they have but the more targeted performance they have. A 300mm² GPU with nothing but shaders will render games better than one with 50 mm² dedicated to ML blocks, but the latter one will upscale better and look better. Another 50mm² spent on RT hardware like triangle intersect and some BVH thing, that 300mm² all-shader GPU will lack all the RT fancies of the chip with RT acceleration.

Your argument is that five+ years later, devs won't be using that BVH method or that ML upscaling method and they'll want something else that uses plain compute, in the same way devs moved on to deferred rendering and left 360's eDRAM AA redundant. That's the argument that said don't put RT hardware in PS5/XBO because devs can do it in software, an argument shown not to pan out. RT hardware hasn't been replaced with software solutions and it won't, because it's a fundamental image construction method that we can't replace with hacks but want to able to actually use! Likewise, upscaling is not a fad. It's going to be essential to getting better framerates and resolutions where we can't just use more silicon to render faster and higher res, so some form of matrix blocks are going to be necessary. Not using matrix blocks and instead using shaders will be less efficient and achieve inferior results. The only counter to that truth is, "maybe someone will come up with an even better solution that runs on shaders and make those matrix blocks redundant." Even if true, and there's little reason to think so, that wouldn't take away from what those blocks would provide the consoles as they'd still be used!
 
Those software solutions are faster but can't compete, so RTRT hardware is totally necessary.
Subsequently, RTRT hardware implementations are becoming intractable in terms of complexity as time passes ...
And how does your argument fit with mobile vendors who add numerous accelerators and processors and functional blocks into their SOCs? Their need for performance and efficiency is greater than consoles and they have moved very much towards specialisation over generalisation.
Do they ? As of recent they've added some sort of NPU but so did the latest AMD/Intel CPUs so how exactly do mobile vendors have more specialized hardware ? If anything I'd argue that mobile vendors have LESS specialized hardware considering how AMD manages to beat all of them in a ray tracing benchmark and they don't have any matrix hardware acceleration within their GPUs either ...

Even mobile vendors have a limit as to how much dark silicon they're willing to accept ...
Which is achieved more with specialised silicon than general purpose. Every console comes with hardware dedicated to video compression because it's a lot more efficient than doing that in general purpose shaders. This line of yours is exactly the reason for more specialisation because you get more performance and efficiency from specalisation!
We call that a "paradox". How can one afford having more specialized circuits with ever decreasing die sizes ?
Your argument is that five+ years later, devs won't be using that BVH method or that ML upscaling method and they'll want something else that uses plain compute, in the same way devs moved on to deferred rendering and left 360's eDRAM AA redundant. That's the argument that said don't put RT hardware in PS5/XBO because devs can do it in software, an argument shown not to pan out. RT hardware hasn't been replaced with software solutions and it won't, because it's a fundamental image construction method that we can't replace with hacks but want to able to actually use! Likewise, upscaling is not a fad. It's going to be essential to getting better framerates and resolutions where we can't just use more silicon to render faster and higher res, so some form of matrix blocks are going to be necessary. Not using matrix blocks and instead using shaders will be less efficient and achieve inferior results. The only counter to that truth is, "maybe someone will come up with an even better solution that runs on shaders and make those matrix blocks redundant." Even if true, and there's little reason to think so, that wouldn't take away from what those blocks would provide the consoles as they'd still be used!
What if some hardware vendors don't like the implementation cost of RT hardware and the feature goes away regardless of yours or anyone else's wishes ? The reality that happens all too often is that many concepts that do get raised in private are denied on the spot BEFORE hardware vendors will even entertain the thought of realizing them at all ...

Consoles actually do have some largely unused hardware bits so I wouldn't mind seeing whether or not if these specialized hardware turn out to be crazed fads or not! Specialized hardware can unnecessarily burden future hardware designs with goals towards binary compatibility since it makes hardware design more complex ...
 
We call that a "paradox". How can one afford having more specialized circuits with ever decreasing die sizes ?
It's not a paradox, it's a well-understood tradeoff. Specialization is more cost-efficient than general purpose if the specialized units are well-utilized, but turns into dark silicon if they are not being properly utilized. I think we all agree on that.

Where we're disagreeing is, you insist that most specialized units are useless (or will become useless), while some of us are saying that existing specialized units are indeed well-utilized by current and near-future workloads, and we think that judicious selection of common idioms for acceleration is going to lead to more well-utilized specialized units in future.

So we agree on the hard science, and disagree on the fuzzier, hard to predict issues. This is a good place to disagree-and-commit and end this debate, wouldn't you agree?
 
Do they ? As of recent they've added some sort of NPU but so did the latest AMD/Intel CPUs so how exactly do mobile vendors have more specialized hardware ?
Mobile silicon has

CPU
GPU
Image Signal Processing
Video compression
AI Processor
Audio DSP

Everything after the CPU and GPU could be run on the CPU and/or GPU using general compute.

We call that a "paradox". How can one afford having more specialized circuits with ever decreasing die sizes ?
You have a limited budget. You need to spend that wisely. You need to choose what will give the best ROI. There's no paradox here. Look at the options and decide which ones are a good bet and which ones might not be.
 
With Xbox hardware seeming like it may be on its way out, more specialized hardware could be a big performance, efficiency and cost win for PS6.
 
It's not a paradox, it's a well-understood tradeoff. Specialization is more cost-efficient than general purpose if the specialized units are well-utilized, but turns into dark silicon if they are not being properly utilized. I think we all agree on that.

Where we're disagreeing is, you insist that most specialized units are useless (or will become useless), while some of us are saying that existing specialized units are indeed well-utilized by current and near-future workloads, and we think that judicious selection of common idioms for acceleration is going to lead to more well-utilized specialized units in future.

So we agree on the hard science, and disagree on the fuzzier, hard to predict issues. This is a good place to disagree-and-commit and end this debate, wouldn't you agree?
Their cost efficient for a task they're primarily designed for but we don't know if the industry practices will evolve into a "common idiom" and some tradeoffs are potentially more steep than others. It doesn't take all that much die area to implement fully featured and robust texture samplers or video codec formats but it's an entirely different ballpark for hardware RT or matrix acceleration that many will have second thoughts going down that path ...
Mobile silicon has

CPU
GPU
Image Signal Processing
Video compression
AI Processor
Audio DSP

Everything after the CPU and GPU could be run on the CPU and/or GPU using general compute.
Sure but even PCs have hardware video codec encoding support and the AI hardware found outside of GPUs in general are nowhere near as powerful. An ISP makes sense in the context of mobile devices being photography instruments and I don't know of any mobile SoC that specifically has an audio processor ...

On average, I'd say that mobile silicon isn't anymore specialized than PC hardware ...
 
Mobile silicon has

CPU
GPU
Image Signal Processing
Video compression
AI Processor
Audio DSP
Apple silicon on the desktop/laptop space has a dedicated encryption/authentication block for security and biometrics as well, there is also a fast dedicated NVMe controller, several video encode/decode blocks, and even a dedicated "Media Engine" for ProRes formats.

Consoles now have dedicated fast I/O blocks. GPUs have dedicated video decode/encode engines, and dedicated display controllers for advanced display connections.

You can even make a case for the dedicated texture fetching units (TMUs) and pixels writing/blending processors (ROPs) inside the GPU.
 
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Sure but even PCs have hardware video codec encoding support and the AI hardware found outside of GPUs in general are nowhere near as powerful. An ISP makes sense in the context of mobile devices being photography instruments and I don't know of any mobile SoC that specifically has an audio processor ...

On average, I'd say that mobile silicon isn't anymore specialized than PC hardware ...
That's tangential to the point. There are functions on silicon that can be done in general compute but vendors are choosing not to, preferring specialised hardware. Why is that? It's that reasoning behind custom blocks that improve efficiency at a cost of flexibility that consoles must consider.
 
That's tangential to the point. There are functions on silicon that can be done in general compute but vendors are choosing not to, preferring specialised hardware. Why is that? It's that reasoning behind custom blocks that improve efficiency at a cost of flexibility that consoles must consider.
Specialized logic could be fine depending on the context or if it doesn't impact hardware design complexity too much. Either way, now that GPU work graphs is nearing official release it'll be interesting to see how other ISVs will react to the idea of a performance improvement for micropolygon software rasterization. Will they cave in to the competitive pressure to implement similar technology while poisoning the well (RT hardware) in the process too ?
 
1 / 2 rumor of both Sony and Microsoft developing mobile consoles for next gen, and no it doesn't appear MS is ditching consoles. Their statements about exiting during the Actiblision trial were all technically permissible lies, anything to get the judge to sign off, anything said officially/publically during the trial should be ignored. MS shopping around, and apparently signing a contract with AMD again last month, is much more believable.

Obviously Microsoft has the advantage here. Steam Deck 2 could come out next year with Series S level performance, so an upgrade of that circa 27/28 is obviously doable.

Sony on the other hand has the uphill battle. Rumor is "PS4 compatibility/some PS5", makes me disbelieve that rumor. But it brings up that doubling the power efficiency in 4 years is a tall order. Maybe the console will end up BC in mobile mode only if titles are recompiled to target a wider/slower gpu arch.

Regardless generative AI, it'll get there eventually and enough RAM is needed. So call it 24gb so models have 6gb or so to themselves.

As stated before, the other win is lightfields, everyone that gets to try Google's project starline calls it incredible


TV's will catch on, the big manufacturers (LG/Samsung) are always looking to keep their margins up, as HDR video shows standards can actually come online fast if $$$ is involved.

The question is if anyone at Sony or Microsoft knows enough to put this into a handheld. The stigma of the 3DS will be hard to overcome; lightfields overcome the discomfort and disbelievability that caused it to stagnate, but does any employee there that can do anything know that?
 
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Isn't this just rumours from the usual 'mud flinging, see something sticks' YouTubers?

The MS rumor is more solid, but there seems to be disagreement in Microsoft's upper ranks. Simultaneously planning out a new console and considering going all multiplatform (Starfield on PS5? etc.) If they go all multiplatf there doesn't seem to be a good reason to keep making a console.
 
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Even if they go multiplatform, there's still a good reason for them to put hardware out - 30% of all software sales on 50+ million hardware units and a GP delivery mechanism
 
Even if they go multiplatform, there's still a good reason for them to put hardware out - 30% of all software sales on 50+ million hardware units and a GP delivery mechanism
It will not remain that way in any future generation after this announcement. Xbox is done with this. Sales will drop to almost nothing.
 
I don't think so. MS is banking on the ecosystem baking in helping with this as much as it is hurting them break the PS users attached to Sony's ecosystem.

I don't know a single Xbox user that is abandoning the Xbox ecosystem just for a few Sony sad dad games. Especially if there is no GP and games take an extra year to land on PS.

MS has to tread carefully though.
 
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