Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[patsu]

For the purpose of doing motion controlling the Wii has shown that a cheap sensor bar will work.

Sure, but PS Move added some improvements. It can do absolute positioning and doesn't seem to require frequent calibration. There is no need to keep the controller pointed at the screen/sensor bar.

The cost of the Wii Remote plus the sensor bar is more likely to cost less than the PS3 Move plus PS Eye. For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

Probably best to get real pricing info to see how much of a difference it is. Otherwise, it's your guesstimates vs my words. Like I said, the camera is not an incremental cost for PS Move controller. There is only one camera for the entire set up. The Wiimote will have 1 IR camera per user. I don't see why the PSEye is a variable cost here.

See my track record, the kind of motion controlling I was looking forward to was something like Wii or the Gametrak Freedom, but without a sensor of any kind. The only thing that came that close was the Motus Darwin, but it disappeared into obscurity. Natal is ok since its just one device, but again I wanted something in my hand. The extra stuff that Natal & PSEye bring are neat and all but they seem like they were bolted on to give added value to the motion system.

The PSEye added absolute positioning and helps to calibrate the motion controllers. In practical terms, it allows user to write precisely using the controller. EyePet uses it for sketch recognition. It allows users to manipulate in-game objects precisely in a virtual (3D) environment. LittleBigPlanet may use it for user level construction.

For additional controller-free features, I'd say it depends on the games. It only feels bolted on if the game doesn't use it properly. I think SingStar speech recognition is great because you can control the game using the mic alone (No need to put down mic, navigate songs and categories using DS3, pick up mic). However if you try to use the speech recognition to do free-form conversation with the computer, then it will probably be a disappointment.

 

[Refreshment]

I want the motion tracking to be able to do everything the Move can do without the camera or light-bulb.

Tommy McClain

Interesting. So the product you are proposing is similar to the Sixense or at one time the eeeStick?

Regarding Move, it might not be original but its a definitive improvement over the Wiimote and has a lot more potential applications. Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.

You mean camera in Wiimote rather than Wii? I don't think the software tech was there by Wii's launch - Sony are only just rolling it out and they've been working on this stuff for years. Perhaps there's also a processing limitation with Wii not having enough grunt to do the iamge-processing?

 

[thop]

Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.

Probably to avoid having light bulbs on the remote, and maybe a few other reasons.

 

[patsu]

There is a Sony patent that uses a geometric shape (e.g., a rectangle) laid out using LED to do the same thing as the bulb -- judge distance from the PSEye accurately.

In the end, Sony chose the bulb. My guess is it's because:

(1) The bulb is visible even if the controller is held at weird angle at a greater distance

(2) It gives off brighter ("bigger") light to combat harsh lighting condition

Not sure if it's cheaper to make a bulb controller (vs a LED-rectangle controller).

I believe the developers will make use of the bulb. It's very easy to do, and also easily noticeable by the users.

EDIT:
The Wiimote has a different design goal. I remember it will mimic a traditional controller by holding it sideway. Having a bulb at one end would have compromised this requirement.

 

[AzBat]

Probably best to get real pricing info to see how much of a difference it is. Otherwise, it's your guesstimates vs my words. Like I said, the camera is not an incremental cost for PS Move controller. There is only one camera for the entire set up. The Wiimote will have 1 IR camera per user. I don't see why the PSEye is a variable cost here.

Who said anything about variable cost? The Wii & PS3 Move are pretty much the same thing, they just have the cameras swapped. The Wii sensor bar & PSEye are each at a fixed price. The Wiimote & PS3 Move controllers are each at a fixed price. Considering the materials, I don't see how either the PSEye or PS3 Move could be cheaper than their corresponding Wii counterparts. This is even if you have to buy enough controllers for 4 players( 4 Wiimotes & 1 sensor bar OR 3 PS3 Move controllers & 1 PSEye).

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

Who said anything about variable cost?

Him:

For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

Considering the materials, I don't see how either the PSEye or PS3 Move could be cheaper than their corresponding Wii counterparts. This is even if you have to buy enough controllers for 4 players(4 Wiimotes & 1 sensor bar OR 3 PS3 Move controllers & 1 PSEye)

Who says PS Move has to be cheaper ? Can it be equally priced ? The retail price is different from the BOM cost, although the latter is indeed a major driver. Nintendo has the volume advantage. However, the retail price also depends on how much $$$ Nintendo and Sony want to make out of each controller. Without official pricing info and BOM, I don't see where you get your data from. We don't even know for sure whether the subcontroller/nunchuck will have built-in sensors.

 

[AzBat]

Interesting. So the product you are proposing is similar to the Sixense or at one time the eeeStick?

Never heard of either. But after looking at them I like those a lot better than PS3 Move. The Sixense looks the better of the two, but it still looks like it has some kind of sensor. But at least you don't need direct line of sight. Seems similar to the Gametrak Freedom. So far the only one I've seen so far without any kind of sensor was the Motus Darwin.

Tommy McClain

 

[ShadowRunner]

Who said anything about variable cost? The Wii & PS3 Move are pretty much the same thing, they just have the cameras swapped. The Wii sensor bar & PSEye are each at a fixed price. The Wiimote & PS3 Move controllers are each at a fixed price. Considering the materials, I don't see how either the PSEye or PS3 Move could be cheaper than their corresponding Wii counterparts. This is even if you have to buy enough controllers for 4 players( 4 Wiimotes & 1 sensor bar OR 3 PS3 Move controllers & 1 PSEye).

Tommy McClain

The cameras are swapped yes but what this means is instead of one camera in moves case you have a camera per wiimote so for a 4 controller system you have 4 cameras whereas with move you have one no matter what.

To match moves functionality the motionplus addon needs to be bought as an addon for each wiimote. Once you have this each wiimote needs its own inbuilt camera which is above and beyond the materials needed in move. The built in battery adds cost to move but could work out cheeper for the consumer overall. Cost of bulb woud be an additional cost for move. wiimote has a speaker.

The move setup actually becomes better value the more controllers you add.

It still does not match the functionality though which is key, you should be looking at value rather than cost.

Things like this are not possible on Wii. Its easy to see them as essentially the same things but this isnt the case.

 

[patsu]

Never heard of either. But after looking at them I like those a lot better than PS3 Move. The Sixense looks the better of the two, but it still looks like it has some kind of sensor. But at least you don't need direct line of sight. Seems similar to the Gametrak Freedom. So far the only one I've seen so far without any kind of sensor was the Motus Darwin.

Can Motus Darwin do absolute positioning ?

 

[AzBat]

For one player that difference may not be such a big barrier, but start adding more players and you can see how expensive it could be even compared to the Wii.

I said that because it's my belief that the PS3 Move controller will still be more expensive than the Wiimote. Let's be safe & say the PS3 Move is only $5 more per controller. That's $20 more after getting 4 players. That's not even counting the cost difference between a sensor bar & a PSEye.

Who says PS Move has to be cheaper ? Can it be equally priced ? The retail price is different from the BOM cost, although the latter is indeed a major driver. Nintendo has the volume advantage. The retail price also depends on how much $$$ Nintendo and Sony want to make out of each controller. Without official pricing info and BOM, I don't see where you get your data from.

Got it from common sense. A product released in 2006 with now cheaper components will more likely be cheaper than a product released 4 years later with slightly more expensive components. Even if the controllers were to cost the same(which I can't see) you still have figure in the cost difference between a cheap sensor bar & more expensive PSEye.

BTW, I've always been talking retail price.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

Can Motus Darwin do absolute positioning ?

Yes. It uses Earth's magnetic north for relative positioning.

Tommy McClain

 

[ShadowRunner]

I said that because it's my belief that the PS3 Move controller will still be more expensive than the Wiimote. Let's be safe & say the PS3 Move is only $5 more per controller. That's $20 more after getting 4 players. That's not even counting the cost difference between a sensor bar & a PSEye.



Got it from common sense. A product released in 2006 with now cheaper components will more likely be cheaper than a product released 4 years later with slightly more expensive components. Even if the controllers were to cost the same(which I can't see) you still have figure in the cost difference between a cheap sensor bar & more expensive PSEye.

BTW, I've always been talking retail price.

Tommy McClain

You are forgetting the need for motion+ add-on for each controller. I would expect retail price of a wiimote plus the motion+ addon to come in above a single Move.

Yes. It uses Earth's magnetic north for relative positioning.

Tommy McClain

Shouldnt Move be able to do this also? it has a built in compass. How does this give position information, surely it only gives the orientation of the device rather than position?

 

[patsu]

I said that because it's my belief that the PS3 Move controller will still be more expensive than the Wiimote. Let's be safe & say the PS3 Move is only $5 more per controller. That's $20 more after getting 4 players. That's not even counting the cost difference between a sensor bar & a PSEye.

Perhaps, but Motus Darwin is expected to sell for $79 - $100 according to http://www.gamespot.com/news/6234451.html

And you like it more than Wiimote+ ? Now, multiply it by 4 players, how much premium are you paying ? What about the nunchuck ? Who's going to write games for it ?

That's only for motion tracking and compass-based absolute positioning. PS Move does what Motus Darwin is doing, plus all the controller-free stuff PS Eye is capable of, and you are afraid of a conservatively/theoretical $5 hike per controller ?

Sony sold PS Eye at a $10 premium in Eye of Judgment.

Got it from common sense. A product released in 2006 with now cheaper components will more likely be cheaper than a product released 4 years later with slightly more expensive components. Even if the controllers were to cost the same(which I can't see) you still have figure in the cost difference between a cheap sensor bar & more expensive PSEye.

BTW, I've always been talking retail price.

If so, it would be more fruitful after Sony announces a price, and the final package.

 

[AzBat]

The cameras are swapped yes but what this means is instead of one camera in moves case you have a camera per wiimote so for a 4 controller system you have 4 cameras whereas with move you have one no matter what.

I don't look at it like that. You need 5 pieces of equipment for a Wii to do 4-player. On the PS3, I would also need 5 pieces of equipment to do 4-player. Plus, the cameras in the Wii Remote are much simpler & cheaper IR cameras.

To match moves functionality the motionplus addon needs to be bought as an addon for each wiimote. Once you have this each wiimote needs its own inbuilt camera which is above and beyond the materials needed in move. The built in battery adds cost to move but could work out cheeper for the consumer overall. Cost of bulb woud be an additional cost for move. wiimote has a speaker.

I can get Wii Remotes with included MotionPlus for less than $48 at Walmart. I can get replacement sensor bars for less than $15 at Walmart too.

The move setup actually becomes better value the more controllers you add.

It still does not match the functionality though which is key, you should be looking at value rather than cost.

I'm looking at cost since I also have to look at purchasing the system too. I could get similar experiences(not necessarily as good as or better) on the Wii for much less money.

Tommy McClain

 

[ShadowRunner]

After a bit of reading Motus Darwin doesnt seem to offer absolute position trackin on x/y/z at all.

It seems to be identical in hardware to move. Without the PSEye they are essentially the same they give absolute orientation of the device, with the compass giving yaw wich gyros cant provide, which enables pointing. The pointing here doesnt take advantage of knowing were the controller is in 3d space though so all pointing is relative to a fixed point unlike with Move. You couldnt do pointing like in the torch demo or the camera control in the minority report demo with Motus Darwin. As soon as you move it would need recalibrating to its new position, something move can do on the fly. The camera in the Move system is there for x/y/z positioning, without it you are left with Motus Darwin. Without PSEye move should stil be capable of doing everything you see Motus Darwin doing.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I can get Wii Remotes with included MotionPlus for less than $48 at Walmart. I can get replacement sensor bars for less than $15 at Walmart too.

I'm looking at cost since I also have to look at purchasing the system too. I could get similar experiences(not necessarily as good as or better) on the Wii for much less money.

Tommy McClain

That chart is terrible, $100 for a single move? Whoever made that needs thier head examined

Wii is going to work out cheaper overall i have little doubt, i dont see much point in the comparison though if the difference in features and experiences are not taken into account. In terms of value Move could win out by quite a margin.

 

[Refreshment]

You mean camera in Wiimote rather than Wii? I don't think the software tech was there by Wii's launch - Sony are only just rolling it out and they've been working on this stuff for years. Perhaps there's also a processing limitation with Wii not having enough grunt to do the iamge-processing?

Camera facing user. What im suggesting will work almost exactly the same as it works know, same tech inverse application. Obviously the camera accessory cost would be higher but then, 1 is required per console (instead of the low res ones in each remote -250*150???-). Im not saying that it would match what Sony offers now, even less so 4 years ago.

But simply im suggesting there are added benefits of having the camera facing the player. Obvious stuff like video conferencing, picture sharing and social networks. To more in depth stuff like content creation and uses in creativity software.

Its even more puzzling to me, since Nintendo has been toying with the use of cameras for enterteiment since a long time. To the point of having software that uses them laying around. Like for example Talent Studio for the 64DD.

Of course they had good reasons (at least for them) to use the current method but doesnt change the fact that i would love to know exactly what those reasons are

 

[ShadowRunner]

Camera facing user. What im suggesting will work almost exactly the same as it works know, same tech inverse application. Obviously the camera accessory cost would be higher but then, 1 is required per console (instead of the low res ones in each remote -250*150???-). Im not saying that it would match what Sony offers now, even less so 4 years ago.

But simply im suggesting there are added benefits of having the camera facing the player. Obvious stuff like video conferencing, picture sharing and social networks. To more in depth stuff like content creation and uses in creativity software.

Its even more puzzling to me, since Nintendo has been toying with the use of cameras for enterteiment since a long time. To the point of having software that uses them laying around. Like for example Talent Studio for the 64DD.

Of course they had good reasons (at least for them) to use the current method but doesnt change the fact that i would love to know exactly what those reasons are

The camera facing player solution wouldnt work without gyros and compass to give accurate orientation information. It was not cost effective to use gyros when Wii was first created. If they had been we may have seen what you suggest.

 

[ShadowRunner]

This video basically shows the capabilities of the move without PSEye. Its not until you think about it that the limitations with what you see here is clear. The pointing works but is calibrated to the players current position, if the player moves the calibration is still bassed on the players original position so while pointing still works in a sense it is not lightgun style pointing where you are pointing at the place on screen you want to be. For example you may be having to point at the top left or even off the screen in order for the cursor to appear in the centre of the screen depending on the devices new position. This makes any game that has players move position along with pointing impossible and would mean recalibration every time a controller is passed on in a party game for example. Move can handle this.