Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Asher]

I know all about PS3MC, a bunch of friends have been working on it for ages, but I know little to nothing about Natal aside from the video today. But if it can detect where limbs are and depth as well, then it should be adaptable to all types of games including fps. In other words, if it can position your hands in three space, then you should be able to do just about anything with it. It may be dependent on software support for that, but that's Microsoft strong suit anyways.

Not to mention that Natal doesn't need to replace existing controllers and be the only one, unlike the glowstick solution.

Other peripherals can be held in the hands for games that need it.

Consider other possible solutions, like head tracking (turn your head to turn the camera in a FPS) while holding a traditional 360 controller. Or have another kind of game where the player stands up using the controller and could use their legs to control something (eg, a football).

 

[DrJay24]

So turn your head and now not see the action on screen? How about turn around to see the traffic behind me?

 

[onanie]

Other way you can consider as a complete product but I agree intended to casual audience.
Basically you buy the thing and you can play with your friends or your family.

True, what is considered "complete" is up to the buyer. As has been mentioned though, it is quite easy for Sony to bundle a "complete" solution that includes the eye and a couple of waggles. Simple.

 

[TheChefO]

Natal doesn't look suited to pointing (or moving from point A to point B without a controller) at all, and there is a considerable lag in the b-roll videos knocking about on Youtube which would seem to compound this issue. Obviously (as has been said), time will tell whether this is or isn't the case; however I think people who are trying to pitch Natal against PS3MC are missing the point. The PS3MC is meant to be a precision instrument; Natal is meant to be more about increasing personal involvement. They are intended to be used in different ways, and should play to their strengths rather than to that of their rivals.

Incidentally, what does everyone make of the voice recognition? It's certainly cool, but it doesn't seem like something the PSEye can't do does it? I played EndWar using my PSEye to pick up my voice with no problems at all. Natal implies the recognition is done within the Natal's own processing system, whereas the PSEye would rely on software. Is that the only difference, or is there more to it?

The precision on ps3mc is awesome. IMO, this precision plays into the hands of existing gamers. Using it as an aiming tool or mouse replacement.

MS' system is setup to capture the non-gamer that Nintendo has been milking for the past few years. But it goes even further. No need to hold anything or know what button does what or where the buttons are.


MS has a good grip on the "super casual" market. I'm not sure what more could be done in this realm aside from further advancements in reduced lag and higher resolution.

Sony's system on the other hand is more an accessory to the core gamer's arsenal. I think others have a good point though wrt how it fits in the bigger picture.

Price is also working against Sony picking up this market.

If people aren't or weren't all that interested in gaming, but played with mocon somewhere and thought it might be fun, they will likely pickup the cheaper option(s).

 

[joker454]

Come on, with that amount of lag? and how are you going to pull the trigger? don't get me started on the precision Natal has.....

I don't judge lag on tech demos any more than I judge frame drops, bugs and crashes on software betas. Works in progress always have issues. E3 usually involves two weeks of no sleep for developers as they struggle to get demos ready for show, there are always issues. The tweaking will come later. The main goal at E3 is proof of concept. However, it stands to reason that it would be silly for Microsoft to release a motion controller that lags behind the users motion.

 

[liolio]

Exactly.

Wii has been doing a great job with it, but if grandma doesn't even need to press a button or hold anything (arthritis etc), then this will have even more room to grow.

Also, not having to point at the screen will help.

I see this Natal thing as so different from xb360's core market, that it really should be a separate platform.

I think they are missing Natal point too, bring even more people (than the wii) to videogames.
Between I wouldn't be surprised to see a spamming of various accessories to match player desires or specific game requirement. Nintendo showed that it works if done properly.
Between to which point Sony is closer to release than Ms is questionable, hand free navigation may not need Z values, it looks like Ms whatever the hard is have made some break through in regard to the underlying software.

 

[Asher]

Natal doesn't look suited to pointing (or moving from point A to point B without a controller) at all

Use your imagination a bit. I think it could easily be done.

Have a user stick out their arm and use that as a relative pointer, like how the Wii's pointer works today...done.

and there is a considerable lag in the b-roll videos knocking about on Youtube which would seem to compound this issue.

I see the lag too. I have to imagine as they get closer to release they'll be optimizing the hell out of the algorithms used for detection and/or even have some kind of ASIC for it (or at least a co-processor embedded in the bar?).

They do need to improve it a bit to be practical for anything but the more casual games, but all signs point to this being out in Fall 2010 so they've got time.

 

[patsu]

Not to mention that Natal doesn't need to replace existing controllers and be the only one, unlike the glowstick solution.

The waggle prototype doesn't necessarily replace existing controllers too. It would be good if it replaces DS3. That would mean it's cheap enough to be in every PS3.

Other peripherals can be held in the hands for games that need it.

Consider other possible solutions, like head tracking (turn your head to turn the camera in a FPS) while holding a traditional 360 controller. Or have another kind of game where the player stands up using the controller and could use their legs to control something (eg, a football).

Head and leg tracking don't always require 3D and is already doable today with PSEye (actually 5 years ago with EyeToy; although it's more accurate and faster now)

 

[onanie]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this point. The Wiimote was not a proven concept when it was released, and it paid dividends in being suitably different.

Implementing something which, to the average user, is nothing but a clone of what Nintendo has done can be spun either as a "proven concept" as well as a "copycat". Depends on the angle you want to go for...

FWIW, all 3 companies are using "proven concepts" because they are demonstrably valid in the real world. This isn't theory, there is hardware out there for all the consoles for this to work with.

But wouldn't you agree that for gaming applications, the wiimote is the one that has been proven far and beyond expectations? And it would seem that the PSMC is closer to it than Natal is, in terms of technology and execution?

 

[Asher]

So turn your head and now not see the action on screen? How about turn around to see the traffic behind me?

Are your eyeballs fixed directly forward? I'm talking about a slight tilt to either side.

 

[Asher]

The waggle prototype doesn't necessarily replace existing controllers too. It would be good if it replaces DS3. That would mean it's cheap enough to be in every PS3.



Head and leg tracking don't always require 3D and is already doable today with PSEye (actually 5 years ago with EyeToy; although it's more accurate and faster now)

I have to admit it keeps bothering me that people (not just you, but Sony themselves) keep talking about the EyeToy as the "original motion controller". Intel bundled motion controlled games starting in 1999 with their webcams, and I played them...

Head tracking, yes. Foot tracking, no, not reliably...not if you're doing it in 3D.

 

[DrJay24]

Are your eyeballs fixed directly forward? I'm talking about a slight tilt to either side.

So how does the software tell the difference between an intentional glance back and just a small unintentional movement of your head? This is the inherent problem with motion tracking via camera IMO. Gross motor functions are easy, everything else is a headache (no pun intended).

 

[Asher]

But wouldn't you agree that for gaming applications, the wiimote is the one that has been proven far and beyond expectations? And it would seem that the PSMC is closer to it than Natal is, in terms of technology and execution?

I think the limits of motion control being limited to moving an object in the air have already shown themselves on the Wii.

 

[onanie]

Price is also working against Sony picking up this market.

If people aren't or weren't all that interested in gaming, but played with mocon somewhere and thought it might be fun, they will likely pickup the cheaper option(s).

After buying the consoles and the necessary parts, they would probably end up being about the same, really. That is, both will be equally prohibitive to the casual gamer who just wants a bit of mocon.

 

[Asher]

So how does the software tell the difference between an intentional glance back and just a small unintentional movement of your head? This is the inherent problem with motion tracking via camera IMO. Gross motor functions are easy, everything else is a headache (no pun intended).

The same way the software tells when you move your hand to grab a drink while holding a Wiimote or Glowstick.

 

[onanie]

I think the limits of motion control being limited to moving an object in the air have already shown themselves on the Wii.

Yet they have been incredibly successful. Proven concept, no? Which was Strange's original point.

 

[patsu]

I have to admit it keeps bothering me that people (not just you, but Sony themselves) keep talking about the EyeToy as the "original motion controller". Intel bundled motion controlled games starting in 1999 with their webcams, and I played them...

They popularized it for consoles. What can you do ? I didn't claim EyeToy is original. Intel may get the idea from someone else as well. It's an intuitive and simple idea but Sony invested and marketed it.

Head tracking, yes. Foot tracking, no, not reliably...not if you're doing it in 3D.

Foot tracking was shown in the video I linked to. If people need accurate 3D leg tracking, then they will have to use the 3DV camera (or equivalent) but somehow I doubt it's important. Accurate hand tracking is much more important.

 

[onanie]

The same way the software tells when you move your hand to grab a drink while holding a Wiimote or Glowstick.

Except you wouldn't necessarily grab a drink with the hand that still has a glowstick in it, lol.

 

[liolio]

While interesting question, how is that even related?

You totally lost me here

I was may be unclear. My point is that d-pad stick wasn't shown/used during the presentation and that it could not be there, it will be there thus. Ms if needed could for some games (depending on they decide to stick to super casual games or not) simply split a 360 controler "nun chuck style" without having to include any extra tech in this new controler.

Once again, whether MS was truthful or open has nothing to do with simple tasks Natal cannot perform.
In any case if Natal could detect "selection" even at very low precision, they would demo NXE properly instead of that totally lame hand gesture recognition which is much more inefficient than good old dpad even for my grandfather.

More importantly, ~1cm depth resolution from 5m says you can not point a 5 cm stick within ~ meters accuracy. How big is your TV?

You don't get my point if you're to select units in say a RTS actually the Z value doesn't need to be accurate. The device could track your right hand (say with the forefinger sticking out for the example) movement in a 2D plane (X and Y) that would move a pointer/reticule on the screen / for selection you could either validate with a left hand gesture (say you draw a circle in a 2D space in there are 10 units) or for a single unit make a "click " movement with the right hand (not moving the finger but the whole arm say 10cm trust at least).

 

[Asher]

Yet they have been incredibly successful. Proven concept, no? Which was Strange's original point.

They were successful based on the premise of originality and motion control.

Making a me-too accessory that does largely the exact same thing will not make it a success. The limited motion-controlling market is already close to reaching saturation (look at the massive drop in Wii sales in recent months, vs other consoles). Launching a product that does the same thing after the Wii already took those consumers is not a guaranteed recipe for success.