Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

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I did, and ruled that out almost immediately. You might as well point with your elbow. Besides, have you ever done that warm-up excercise where you move your fully extended arms in decreasing and increasing circular motions? You wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Now, I was going to let them pass, but purely out of a fickle sense of spite at the bold(;)), I'd point out that your tilting the head to control the camera would never work or be allowed in a game, let alone in favour of the right stick. That'd be like trying to aim using the Sixaxis tilt. Grenades would work well I'd have thought too, and being able to look around corners by tilting your body would suit sitting in a seat as well as standing up. You're far more likely to see the game use your head movements subtly to give a sense of depth to the onscreen image.

Similarly using your feet to control a football in a serious sim would be simply awful. Fair enough for a party game or something casual, but never in FIFA or PES. At a push I'd say free throws in basketball would be better suited, but it's still hard to tell without knowing what the accuracy you can get from throwing would be like compared to real life.
You're completely missing the point if you keep thinking that the motion controls are meant to be used for games like "serious sims".

I don't see why head tracking would never work or be allowed in the game. It worked decently enough on low-res cameras on low-end PCs back when Matrox was pimping it for the PC years ago. It could be used to cool effect if calibrated correctly and not requiring large tilts.
 
Slight turn... it would imply that you need to have your head in a brace at other times when u do not intend to turn in your FPS.
Not turn -- look. There's a huge difference. This wouldn't affect aim necessarily, but a subtle field of vision change as I see it. Aim would still be controlled with a thumbstick.
 
Launching a product that does the same thing after the Wii already took those consumers is not a guaranteed recipe for success.

True but the consumers they are going after dont have be the same ones. There could be a huge market out there for a console that controls like the wii but offers great graphics, more hardcore content, as well as a ton of other great non-motion control games.

I like the wii but i do crave the better graphics and games that appeal to me.

Im excited. I dont care about casual gamers buying the system or sonys bank balance i just want great games.
 
Well, I said other options.

The xb alternative is

$200 + Natal ($100-$200)

vs

$400 + eyetoy + ps3mc (+ additional waggles)

Either way it is significantly cheaper and thus more likely successful to capture the casual gamer for either MS or N.

I think Sony will have to figure out a way to make this system something that core gamers can buy into. Something that will benefit their games.

FPS' etc.

I could see this thing being awesome with GoW3.


A Wii sports type venture wouldn't go over so well with that price tag...

I would point out that the standalone PSEye is only $40, and I imagine PSMC to be no where near the cost of a Natal for the technology it uses. To say that it is "significantly cheaper and more likely successful to capture the casual gamer" for Microsoft, is jumping the gun. But it is certainly true for the Wii.
 
I was may be unclear. My point is that d-pad stick wasn't shown/used during the presentation and that it could not be there, it will be there thus. Ms if needed could for some games (depending on they decide to stick to super casual games or not) simply split a 360 controler "nun chuck style" without having to include any extra tech in this new controler.
You are still not clear, but I'll bite. How can MS split current controller without a new controller?
Obviously they can release another controller and do almost whatever PS3 tech can do.
If you meant to say PS3 eye cannot move a character while Natal can, not only I disagree, I think Sony is in a better position to address this issue.

As for my answer to your original question, I haven't seen dpad but the sonic patent shows analog stick. Joker should know, as apparently he knows people working on this tech for some time.

For me personally, as a gamer, Sony either needs include analog stick or a comfortable adapter for single hand Sixaxis usage if they want me to care about that beyond intellectual curiosity.

You don't get my point if you're to select units in say a RTS actually the Z value doesn't need to be accurate. The device could track your right hand (say with the forefinger sticking out for the example) movement in a 2D plane (X and Y) that would move a pointer/reticule on the screen / for selection you could either validate with a left hand gesture (say you draw a circle in a 2D space in there are 10 units) or for a single unit make a "click " movement with the right hand (not moving the finger but the whole arm say 10cm trust at least).
Well, at least I now understand why you changed pointing to selection. RTS is a bad example though, but I agree they can do 3d mouse. At least they should be able to, one would think.
The question is then, why wasn't there a tech demo of 3d mouse with Natal which I was fully expecting after the rumors as it's the obvious application? The painting demo was terrible, and could use such a thing.
 
Not turn -- look. There's a huge difference. This wouldn't affect aim necessarily, but a subtle field of vision change as I see it. Aim would still be controlled with a thumbstick.

You keep changing your words. You said "Slight turning of the head to indicate which direction to turn in the game is not absurd".

Well, if it is *just* a *subtle* field of vision change, why bother. It would only be nauseating if the field of vision responds to every subtle head movement, be it intended or not.
 
You are still not clear, but I'll bite. How can MS split current controller without a new controller?
Obviously they can release another controller and do almost whatever PS3 tech can do.
If you meant to say PS3 eye cannot move a character while Natal can, not only I disagree, I think Sony is in a better position to address this issue.

As for my answer to your original question, I haven't seen dpad but the sonic patent shows analog stick. Joker should know, as apparently he knows people working on this tech for some time.

For me personally, as a gamer, Sony either needs include analog stick or a comfortable adapter for single hand Sixaxis usage if they want me to care about that beyond intellectual curiosity.
My point is that if needed a new controler or other accessories would be trivial to implement.
Well, at least I now understand why you changed pointing to selection. RTS is a bad example though, but I agree they can do 3d mouse. At least they should be able to, one would think.
The question is then, why wasn't there a tech demo of 3d mouse with Natal which I was fully expecting after the rumors as it's the obvious application? The painting demo was terrible, and could use such a thing.
You still doesn't understand what I mean a mouse doesn't need to be in 3D plane to work.
I don't imply a "3D mouse" as there is no need for it.
 
You're completely missing the point if you keep thinking that the motion controls are meant to be used for games like "serious sims".

I don't see why head tracking would never work or be allowed in the game. It worked decently enough on low-res cameras on low-end PCs back when Matrox was pimping it for the PC years ago. It could be used to cool effect if calibrated correctly and not requiring large tilts.

No, I think I've got the point spot on. If it isn't a serious game, then why keep the controller which is supposed to be repelling the casual market?

You described it as turning the camera. You said nothing about imitating head movements of the in-game character (in which case, lateral movements would be far more impactful, much in the way that the Wiimote head-tracker was so impressive).

My original point, regardless, stands. The Natal's strengths do not appear to lie in pointing or precision of movement. Yes, you will be able to point using Natal, but not for Wiimote Plus (or, I'd wager, Wiimote) accuracy; not for FPS purposes, or for a particularly accurate drag box-style selection. As I also said in that post, it has several strengths of its own, and it simply must be used to harness those strengths rather than try and bullsh** its way through competing with the other systems at their advantages for the sake of going for an easy option.
It will be the games that try to hammer a square peg into a round hole that will do all three respective motion controllers a disservice.
 
My point is that if needed a new controler or other accessories would be trivial to implement.
Agreed, but they won't do that in order not to further split the userbase, especially when controllerless control is your marketing tag line.
You still doesn't understand what I mean a mouse doesn't need to be in 3D plane to work.
I don't imply a "3D mouse" as there is no need for it.

I understood perfectly and It doesn't really matter as I wasn't talking about projection of your hand being in 3d space but your hand being in 3d space.

Whether there is a mapping to 2d is irrelevant (there should be obviously), the point is such a mouse should be obvious tech demo.

BTW, the camera measurement will not be only in 2d, it would be stupid not to use the depth data at least for background foreground separation, and hopefully for clicking motions.
 
Betan I think you got me completely lost :LOL: I'll reread posts tomorow it's three am here I'm not sure I keet track of the discussion properly. A 3D mouse looks possible with Natal, precision could be a concern but I can't see this implement in "real/standard games" as they are other mean to select thing using hand more precisely (as described and you got it) and conviniently but in a wiiplay/sport setting it is likely be enough.

For the new controler, it's just a possibility like nintendo did with wii-fit. I'm not sure sure standard game (especcialy action/fps games) will try to take advantage of the tech this way either (or in anyway to be honest).
 
Come on, with that amount of lag? ...

where are you guys getting this "Oh noes, terrible lag" stuff?

The demo yesterday was showing video lag to the big screens. the screen that the gamer was using was in front of her was real time and perfectly accurate.

here is a hands on
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1902208,00.html
Kipman also showed me a version of Burnout that had been set up to work with Project Natal. Burnout is a serious game, not just a tech demo — it's a polished, fast-paced racing game with high-end graphics, and I happen to have played a lot of it. With Project Natal, instead of using a joystick, you steer by holding your hands up in the air like you're gripping a steering wheel. To hit the gas, you move your foot forward along the floor. To brake, you move it back. To trigger the turbo boost, you do a gear-shifting, fist-pumping movement with your right arm. Awesome.


It takes a few minutes to get the hang of it. You tend to oversteer, since you can't quite believe this thing is going to pick up your movements, so you exaggerate them. But soon you start to trust it, because it does actually work. I couldn't detect any significant latency. And there's definitely an extra edge to playing a game with nothing between you and the screen but your clenched, white-knuckled fists. I'm a hard-core gamer, so I'm not the person Project Natal is targeting. I love my controller as it is. But the appeal of Project Natal is real. You could compare it to the difference between regular movies and 3-D movies: it puts you in the action in a way that nothing else could.
 
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Foot tracking is real important also. Think beyond fps games, etc, and instead picture stuff that the average casual person would like. .

exactly, full body, leg and foot tracking will show itself in this technology beyond what any hand held wand solution will ever be able to do
 
Betan I think you got me completely lost :LOL: I'll reread posts tomorow it's three am here I'm not sure I keet track of the discussion properly. A 3D mouse looks possible with Natal, precision could be a concern but I can't see this implement in "real/standard games" as they are other mean to select thing using hand more precisely (as described and you got it) and conviniently but in a wiiplay/sport setting it is likely be enough.
Man, there is nothing to be lost in, I simply shortened your 2d selection technique as "3d mouse", because of your hand being in 3d, independent of selection being only in 2d plane.
Sweet dreams.
 
Foot tracking, I remember this image from the patent.

us20080261693ki028.jpg


I hope they aren't serious with that :)
 
Here's a blog post by one of the guys working on this tech:

http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

Betan: While a "3d mouse" demo might have been a good tech demo, I think they were out to show casual games, and chose the two demos they used in the time they had allotted for that purpose. For instance, they could have showed Burnout, since it's apparently working. Just because it wasn't shown in the very limited demo during the keynote does not imply that doing it is impossible.

I got the feeling that the two very nervous engineers (I get that same voice quaver when facing huge crowds of people :)) demoing Sony's motion controller were on the plane to LA last night with their tech demos, having gotten a phone call that morning. Their demos were excellent for showing the capabilities of the system, but were obviously not polished, like they would have been normally (Sony is generally pretty slick on stage). I suspect Sony wasn't originally planning on showing the device now.
 
new interview (not sure if it's been linked yet)

Pretty damn cool application of the tech. Just think about the possibilities of this... this is form of AI can maybe be part of each 360/720/etc console. Each console having it's own AI, sorta like Cortana...

AI: "Hi 22psi, what game would you like to play today?"
me: "I feel like some Halo 5"
AI: "Sure let me load it up for you. Also you have some messages waiting. Would you like to view them now or later?"

Eurogamer: So what can Milo do?

Peter Molyneux: Milo can recognise the emotions on your face and the emotions in your voice. He can recognise certain words you say. You can have conversations with him, you can read stories to him. We're trying to bring all these things together. Some of them are tricks - I'll be absolutely honest with you - to make you believe Milo's real.

He can recognise what you're wearing. If he notices you've got dark bags under your eyes he will say, 'You look tired today.'

Eurogamer: Really?

Peter Molyneux: Absolutely, all of that works. We're combining all that together to make you really believe that he understands what you say.

Let's try an experiment. When a human voice says something funny, there's a different tone in the voice. Even though Milo's not trained to recognise your voice, if you say something funny to him, he should recognise it as something amusing. Try it now.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natals-molyneux-and-milo-interview
 
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