Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Arwin]

Also reading that article, Richard makes a point of specifying 150ms was for that particular title.

Yes, but that was also a figure quoted by the developer, and specifically excluded display lag. So the difference between 200ms including display lag and 150 + display lag is not that huge in the first place.

Perhaps it can go beyond that in some cases, such as with 2 players?

Yes, that too, but Richard tested with one player. Note however that in the debug shot you can see it sees multiple people anyway, so even people just being in the shot could theoretically affect the lag, if the system is continuously scanning for multiple players that want to join in dynamically.

Having said that, I'm not really seeing where the lag is coming in. Processing overhead affects refresh rate, not latency. It's still taking one frame to process the data as the games are running at 60fps (in the case of Forza). Perhaps there's a multi-pass processing, requiring several pipelined steps that run across game refreshes?

To some extent it doesn't matter that the games run at 60fps, because Natal doesn't - it is a 30hz camera and from the last information that we got on this topic this is also the speed that it outputs its wireframe updates. Assuming it typically takes both the regular image and the point-cloud, it then needs to analyse that into the wireframe, and combine that with the previous data to produce its vectors (remember it outputs a wireframe where all the joints have predicted movement direction and speed information)

Also watching the Anton demo, it's good to see these consoles have finally found their identities! At the beginning of this generation, PS3 and XB360 were very similar and didn't offer much difference. Blows were traded over services and features, but they were both HD gaming boxea offering basically the same experience. Whereas now, these motion solutions are very different and will invite different titles.

I'm not 100% sure I agree to the same extent, but I do agree that the differences between the various motion tech are probably bigger than they have been in any other aspect so far. That said, we still get a huge overlap now between the type of games enabled by motion controls (e.g. we've seen table tennis, bowling and beach volley on most of these systems, and that kind of thing will continue), but yeah, there is definitely a lot of room for the two to specialise in different areas, given that their strengths are very different.

Personally, I'm most excited simply because motion controls allow for much more innovation, and together with physics becoming more prevalent and even (though still very early now) 3D display technology finally taking off (I'm willing to bet money on 3D being at the very least as successful as HD), creates an environment that will finally allow us to get truly new experiences (and yes, I know that Nintendo paved the way here! ).

 

[(((interference)))]

I stand corrected.
That just cannot be true, judging by the videos. We can see a marginal lag on Move, a significant one on Kinect. A single frame wouldn't be noticeable.

Yea, sorry I was using 133 ms as the Move lag, it's actually 150 ms (for the Sports title) so 44ms more than Move.

And the camera's seen a serious reduction in spec, the RGB camera used to be 1.3 MP not VGA and i'm pretty sure the refresh rate was 60 hz not 30. Don't the existing Xbox camera and EyeToy have 60hz scanrates?

No onboard processing either, and they're still charging 150 bucks for it!

And also, the 1 core utlization rumor might not be confirmed, but Grandmaster might be getting slightly ahead of himself
by saying its way off the mark.

Well, the initial rumours about the use of one core of the Xenon CPU are clearly way off beam based on the games we've seen. Kudo Tsunoda's Kinect Adventures is running some very attractive visuals using the Unreal Engine, which probably wouldn't take kindly to being run on an effectively crippled CPU....

....Probably the best source we have on the actual additional load that Kinect incurs on the Xenon CPU comes from the Wired magazine article on the then-Project Natal run a few months back. In that story, Xbox's technological frontiersman Alex Kipman pegged the load at 10 to 15 per cent depending on the tasks being asked of the various libraries

As the figure quoted by Kipman was 10 to 15% of total system resources not just CPU time, so that might well work out to Kinect using most of 1 core. And when you're nearing the end of the console lifecycle, 10% of system resources is significant.

This probably means that Forza 4 and Fable 3 and other titles that have Kinect support, are not going to be as good looking or have pared back physics/AI etc due to Natal support, which I'm sure core gamers will not be happy about.

Also, I'm wondering whether the lag can be reduced by further driver updates or optimised routines? Or is it pretty much fixed and the devs just have configuration (ie. the amount of lims etc. been tracked) to choose from

 

[BadTB25]

Software is not final, so it could always be improved and almost certainly not worst.

I'm still not that big a believer for motion controls and gaming for me, but my wife appears very interested. I might be a little interested if they came out with a P90X type game for my workouts--now that would keep me motivated to get up in the morning.

 

[liolio]

Software is not final, so it could always be improved and almost certainly not worst.

I'm still not that big a believer for motion controls and gaming for me, but my wife appears very interested. I might be a little interested if they came out with a P90X type game for my workouts--now that would keep me motivated to get up in the morning.

Actually I start to believe in its potential but Kinect is still not where I would want it to be.
Tho I'm a believer that the next generation is going to be awesome could be a rebirth of gaming.

 

[goonergaz]

Actually I start to believe in its potential but Kinect is still not where I would want it to be.
Tho I'm a believer that the next generation is going to be awesome could be a rebirth of gaming.

Nail on the head IMHO - Kinect appears no more than a improved eyetoy with a way too expensive price tag (if the £100 is correct).

Next gen is where this sort of controller should really start to work.

 

[liolio]

Nail on the head IMHO - Kinect appears no more than a improved eyetoy with a way too expensive price tag (if the £100 is correct).

Next gen is where this sort of controller should really start to work.

I'm speaking from a core gamer POV, for casual it may good enough ( I've to try to make up may opinion).
But yes next gen :drool: I'm more in for puppetry style of control than 1o1 motion mapping for core games and I feel that this would require skills (on top of improve precision) not that casual friendly.

 

[obonicus]

Quick answer because I'm about to drive over to e3, but what they showed is not entirely the same as what's on the Wii, and likewise were clearly not targeted at gamers. I thought that would have been pretty easy to see, but I guess not Some stuff was pointless, personally anything that uses Kinect to replace a controller in typical controller driven games is worthless in my mind. But others are spot on and just the types of titles and markets they should be going after. As much as people want to play (insert any typical game here) with Kinect, that's not what it's purpose is.

The difference is in precision and execution, which, given the success of titles without these qualities don't seem to be in high demand. Simply adding precision isn't what you were talking about, because that's not what you said back then.

Yes, because most guys are remarkably whipped by their spouses and can't buy anything without permission. Told you I had to make short answers Aside from that, there still are millions out there that haven't jumped in yet, and if they are presented with something that caters to both them and their wives/kids/girlfrields, then they may finally take the plunge. Remember, price is one barrier to entry, but it isn't always the only one! There are some out there that have the money, but what the 360 currently presents isn't appealing enough for them to buy it. Come November maybe it will be.

Well, I'm not convinced that demographic exists in any significant number, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tap In]

... why all of a sudden when these companies tread well-covered ground I'm so baffled that everyone is so wowed by simply higher-precision versions of stuff we saw before.

...

we have not yet seen a motion system that can do with the entire body and voice, what Kinect does so to say it is just a higher precision version of old stuff, I would say, is an incorrect assessment. Now whether or not this has the success factor of a Wii is yet to be seen but it certainly (as Shifty points out) is intended to broaden their market. Which I believe it has the potential to do just not know as to what degree.

edit:
although to suggest that it is a generational leap over Eye Toy would not be unfair.

 

[obonicus]

we have not yet seen a motion system that can do with the entire body and voice, what Kinect does so to say it is just a higher precision version of old stuff, I would say, is an incorrect assessment. Now whether or not has has the success factor of a Wii is yet to be seen but it certainly (as Shifty points out) is intended to broaden their market. Which I believe it has the potential to do.

The Wii offers a way lower-res version of it with their Wii-mote + nunchuck and the balance board. All this sortware will be way better on Kinect, no doubt, but the ideas are hardly new.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The Wii offers a way lower-res version of it with their Wii-mote + nunchuck and the balance board. All this sortware will be way better on Kinect, no doubt, but the ideas are hardly new.

I think that's all very much down to interpretation. What Kinect does is totally new, but at the same time a lot of the results will be an evolution of existing ideas. thus health and fitness isn't new, appearing on Wii. And that in turn wasn't new, appearing first on Eyetoy. But each has improved the experience and helps reach a larger audience.

I feel a lot of the potential in Kinect is being missed as people see what's being offered and are missing what could be offered. Then again, sixaxis offered lots and delivered very little, so maybe things should be taken at face value? If noone shows a first-person adventure game with virtual object interaction, it'll never get made.

 

[obonicus]

I think that's all very much down to interpretation. What Kinect does is totally new, but at the same time a lot of the results will be an evolution of existing ideas. thus health and fitness isn't new, appearing on Wii. And that in turn wasn't new, appearing first on Eyetoy. But each has improved the experience and helps reach a larger audience.

But that's the point. The tech IS new. But where are the new applications? Nothing's proven me wrong so far (though maybe Children of Eden might, but even that will have conventional controller controls), it's just the old stuff done better or situations where motion replaces a button press just because. I asked earlier, in a different thread if anyone could even give an idea of what sort of new application might be found for motion controls, I'm not sure anything short of a true visionary will figure it out.

 

[joker454]

The difference is in precision and execution, which, given the success of titles without these qualities don't seem to be in high demand. Simply adding precision isn't what you were talking about, because that's not what you said back then.

I might be in the minority, but what they have shown so far on Kinect does not just seem like Wii remakes to me. So to me their execution is unique, and it's successful in that the launch lineup has good variety aimed at the correct audience. An intense marketing campaign will help on that as well. Comments were generally good and all fell into expected lines, the hardcore hate it whereas the non hardcore had fun with it. Given the throngs of guys oogling the ladies playing the Yoga app I'd have to think that they very much enjoyed it as well, although how much they actually were staring at the game display is indeed questionable. There is lag present, but I still don't think it matters as much for the intended market, which is not fps'ers. They still have some work to do there but I think the precision of the device will be enough for the target audience. But that's all just my always humble opinion

Well, I'm not convinced that demographic exists in any significant number, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Well Move comes out somewhat before Kinect so they will get first crack at the market, and they have a good PS3 Move pack in game for the PS3 bundle so that should help, But most of the stuff they showed for Move just didn't seem all that appealing to me whereas I'll be getting Kinect because it just seems damn cool to play with. I guess we'll see what happens in September.

 

[draconian]

I might be in the minority, but what they have shown so far on Kinect does not just seem like Wii remakes to me. So to me their execution is unique, and it's successful in that the launch lineup has good variety aimed at the correct audience.

Kinect is nothing but wii remakes, but better. Wii can't keep track of legs or body or heads, only the hands (where the controller is held). The 2 killers apps for Kinect are the fitness games and Harmonix's Dance Central, everything else is going to bomb. But the real question that needs to be asked is.... do the casual care? Will the extra degree of tracking convince people to buy Kinect/Dance Central?

 

[messyman]

Do you think Nintendo and Sony will go the Kinect route for the next gen consoles?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Do you think Nintendo and Sony will go the Kinect route for the next gen consoles?

I would expect eyetoy to evolve into a 3d camera, with Move evolving alongside it. Nintendo? Not really sure. I kind of expect all three companies to end up in roughly the same place (camera + peripheral). MS will make their standard controller work with Kinect somehow, and Sony will make Eyetoy 3D. Nintendo is a tough call, but I think they'll add a camera and evolve the wiimote.

 

[tha_con]

Quick answer because I'm about to drive over to e3, but what they showed is not entirely the same as what's on the Wii, and likewise were clearly not targeted at gamers. I thought that would have been pretty easy to see, but I guess not Some stuff was pointless, personally anything that uses Kinect to replace a controller in typical controller driven games is worthless in my mind. But others are spot on and just the types of titles and markets they should be going after. As much as people want to play (insert any typical game here) with Kinect, that's not what it's purpose is.




Yes, because most guys are remarkably whipped by their spouses and can't buy anything without permission. Told you I had to make short answers Aside from that, there still are millions out there that haven't jumped in yet, and if they are presented with something that caters to both them and their wives/kids/girlfrields, then they may finally take the plunge. Remember, price is one barrier to entry, but it isn't always the only one! There are some out there that have the money, but what the 360 currently presents isn't appealing enough for them to buy it. Come November maybe it will be.

I've seen this a lot from the folks, and excuse me for saying it this way, defending kinect.

"Kinect isn't supposed to replace controllers". Then might I ask you what it is supposed to do? For 30 years we've been using controllers to play video games. They want to use Kinect to play video games. Obviously it will be replacing controllers. Any statement other wise is absolutely absurd.

Now, if you're saying that there shouldn't be a shooter on it, I agree, but not for the same reasons. I think the hardware looked absolutely terrible during every showing. Honestly, if this is the kind of software implementation we can expect, then I will gladly pass on Kinect. Voice recognition is easy to do on any system. I'm certain if Sony wanted to they could implement it with the PS Eye without any problems at all. Navigating menu's with my hand is nothing more than tech pron, and is useless since it's so slow. The majority of the software is doing things the Eyetoy could have done, or would be capable of today. Sure, some of it was a bit more finite in control, but almost none of that was for actual games (which worries me).

So, again, if Kinect isn't supposed to replace my controller for gaming, then what exactly is it supposed to do?

 

[joker454]

Kinect is nothing but wii remakes, but better. Wii can't keep track of legs or body or heads, only the hands (where the controller is held). The 2 killers apps for Kinect are the fitness games and Harmonix's Dance Central, everything else is going to bomb. But the real question that needs to be asked is.... do the casual care? Will the extra degree of tracking convince people to buy Kinect/Dance Central?

The 'killer apps' will depend on who you talk with. For some it was Dance Central. For others, Yoga. For yet others there were none. Your two chosen killer apps don't match up with others killer apps, and in the end we won't know if there are any until November. As for will the casuals care? Well that's the million dollar question. Or multi million dollar in this case. I'm still skeptical of Microsoft being able to properly price a peripheral so it might go flat on pricing alone for all we know, but we'll see.

So, again, if Kinect isn't supposed to replace my controller for gaming, then what exactly is it supposed to do?

Easy, it's purpose in life it to extract money from the bank accounts of the few hundred million or so remaining people that still don't have consoles. The #1 barrier to entry for non gamers is the controller, for whatever reason they are intimidated by them. Don't ask me why, I still can't figure it out but apparently they are. So they are trying to eliminate that barrier to entry. Next is to try some clever app ideas to get them to crack open their wallets. That's it really. Controllers aren't going away, they will live on and co-exist along side alternative interfaces for years to come. I'm not sure why it's often seen as so black & white where it's presumed that stuff like Kinect will replace controllers. Just keep both and target both audiences with customized interfaces. The one interface fits all approach (ie, making everyone pick up a 360 controller) doesn't work anymore if huge market expansion is your ultimate goal.

 

[tha_con]

The 'killer apps' will depend on who you talk with. For some it was Dance Central. For others, Yoga. For yet others there were none. Your two chosen killer apps don't match up with others killer apps, and in the end we won't know if there are any until November. As for will the casuals care? Well that's the million dollar question. Or multi million dollar in this case. I'm still skeptical of Microsoft being able to properly price a peripheral so it might go flat on pricing alone for all we know, but we'll see.




Easy, it's purpose in life it to extract money from the bank accounts of the few hundred million or so remaining people that still don't have consoles. The #1 barrier to entry for non gamers is the controller, for whatever reason they are intimidated by them. Don't ask me why, I still can't figure it out but apparently they are. So they are trying to eliminate that barrier to entry. Next is to try some clever app ideas to get them to crack open their wallets. That's it really. Controllers aren't going away, they will live on and co-exist along side alternative interfaces for years to come. I'm not sure why it's often seen as so black & white where it's presumed that stuff like Kinect will replace controllers. Just keep both and target both audiences with customized interfaces. The one interface fits all approach (ie, making everyone pick up a 360 controller) doesn't work anymore if huge market expansion is your ultimate goal.

It isn't mean to replace controllers entirely, but it is a replacement for a controller. A means to control an interactive video game. There's no getting around that.

And I disagree, I think the controller is the least intimidating aspect of video games. I think the content is the biggest fault. We've been playing games for three decades, and we're still shooting shit and jumping on the heads of monsters. It's pretty hard to bring everyone into that. The thing that will eventually break down the wall is stuff like Heavy Rain. Anyone can learn to dial-a-combo or perform actions on a controller. It's not different from typing, etc. They simply don't have the desire to learn. The Wii isn't successful because it's easy to play, that's only a part of the equation. The Wii is successful because it's fun, and people want to have fun. Kinect has potential to do that, but not at a rumored $450 price point (without games).

Nice move on MS though going after that Wii form factor (though it appears the disc tray is still a heaping pile of trash...).

Edit: Also, a month ago we couldn't keep you quiet about the potential for "Natal", and how much cooler it was than Move. Now all of the sudden this simply isn't a product for us, and it's biggest applications are half baked fitness games and some pose recognition games...er...dance games.

What changed?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It would only be a natural evolution for Nintendo and Sony to increase variety of motion tracked moving towards Kinect with some form of 3D body tracking.

And only be a natural evolution for Kinect to move towards Move/Wiimote+ with increased accuracy.

So, yes, I'd say we'll see some convergence in the next generation with perhaps true parity the generation after that. Will be interesting to see the methods used for that. Better camera and processing? Or more physical controllers?

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And I disagree, I think the controller is the least intimidating aspect of video games.

Sure you think it's the least intimidating. And anyone who is a current console gamer will think it's the least intimidating, but you still aren't getting the point. You and they aren't the primary target demographic for this.

Doesn't matter if you believe it or not but studies have shown that people who are NOT gamers find the controller intimidating. Especially as the number of buttons and sticks and pads and triggers and bumpers grow.

I have a feeling you will never understand, and that's fine, since you aren't in the demographic they are trying to go after.

Now you can argue that people that find the controller intimidating may not be interested in a console no matter what, but then again those same studies show that people are interested in gaming even if they are intimidated by the controlles with 2 analog sticks, a dpad, 6+ face buttons, multiple bumpers, triggers, etc...

Whether MS can tap into that in any meaningful way we'll find out in November.

Regards,
SB