What car do you drive? Does it have an semi-automatic with paddle shifts? Reason i am asking, since you made this comment about downshifts and locking up the rear wheels i got the impresison you had no idea of real life cars
Official GT5 discussion thread
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What car do you drive? Does it have an semi-automatic with paddle shifts? Reason i am asking, since you made this comment about downshifts and locking up the rear wheels i got the impresison you had no idea of real life cars
I'll bite...
While I agree that human confidence is probably one of the larger reasons for not getting a fair comparison between real and in-game laptimes - factors as pointed out by RobertR1 such as tyre grip, pressure, ambient temp, wind etc are not to be underestimated. If you've ever been regularly to the track, these factors alone should see you have very different times on different days. Tyre make/type, condition and pressure is a huge factor alone. While GT might offer some choices on tyre types (Comfort/Sports/Race) it only offers some default grip values depending on the type and compound (Hard/Int/Soft). In real-life however, you will already have variations simply comparing two semi-slick tyres of different brands (i.e. Toyo R888 vs Yokohama A048). How could a game even remotely account for these factors, let alone across 200 or even a thousand cars? Does it need to? No of course not, as these factors alone are small, but when you add them up to other factors such as wind, varying track temperatures, climate changes (engine in-take temperatures) among others, these things do add up eventually.
...and these factors do vary from car to car too. Some cars that are easier to drive give you a lot of confidence regardless how well it's setup. Other cars... well, every factor speaks volumes.
I actually participated in SCCA events for about 8 years (just stopped last year). I ran SOLOII. I also spent a fair amount of time at the Heartland Race track in Topeka, KS.
So here's what I'm going to say:
1) The difference between brands of tires will rarely result in bigger gaps of SECONDS in your times, assuming you are on the same surface with the same conditions. Also, the suggestion that different brands must be present to properly simulate a good tire model is over the top. That's a variable, not a condition. If GT5 only featured tires from Toyo, then that wouldn't make their tire model any less credible, or any more. Conversely, Turn10 partnered with Toyo for their tire model, is it suddenly less credible because it only reflects the make of one tire?
2) Both you and Robert seem to assume with no viable source of information that the game doesn't account for weather conditions and so on. Have either of you done considerable testing to see what your lap times are on the same track with different conditions? What was your control?
3) You seem to misunderstand my post. I take it you are under the impression that I don't think those things matter, when it's the contrary. However, they are NOT the biggest difference in lap times. All of those factors combined will usually lead to lap times that are different within a few seconds for a skilled driver, even an amateur one. In a video game, without the "human condition", you're generally looking at differences in the tens of seconds. It would truly have to be a shitty day, with terrible tires, 50mph winds, and a difference in altitude, before you saw a difference in the tens of seconds.
No reason to get worked up tha_con. This isn't to dish GT5's driving model but was merely to point out that the whole "real life laptimes vs. game lap times" discussion is rather silly indeed.
Roberts post highlights the various factors in reality spot-on. No one ever claimed that GT5 doesn't factor in any of those variables. In fact, the only person to draw that connection was you.
The variables might be there in GT5, but it still doesn't allow an absolute authentic comparison between real-life and in-game laps in every scenario. For that, the factors Robert pointed out vary too much from day to day in real-life. How could a game with pretty much a fixed scenario (daylight / dry track condition, fixed tyre grip) compare?
I agree with you that a drivers confidence and sanity level is the biggest factor on a track such as the Nordschleife. On an easier circuit/track where confidence might not be the determing factor, other factors do become relevant. Even cars of the same make rarely perform the same either.
And btw: varying types of brands do make a difference. How big of a difference that is in seconds obviously depends on the track and the length of it, the car etc. On a stretch of road like the Nordschleife at 20km it will amount to at least a few seconds if not more (if the tyre overheats for instance). Heck even on a small 2km track with few straights it's noticable.
I actually never used the T1R, so I wouldn't really be in a position to compare. I did go from Yokohama A048 to the Toyo R888 and have not once looked back, which is great given the R888 are quite a bit cheaper too. It's a popular tyre choice among everything from Lotus to Evo's and heavier cars. I'd give them a try. :smile:
Roberts post highlights the various factors in reality spot-on. No one ever claimed that GT5 doesn't factor in any of those variables. In fact, the only person to draw that connection was you.
The variables might be there in GT5, but it still doesn't allow an absolute authentic comparison between real-life and in-game laps in every scenario. For that, the factors Robert pointed out vary too much from day to day in real-life. How could a game with pretty much a fixed scenario (daylight / dry track condition, fixed tyre grip) compare?
I agree with you that a drivers confidence and sanity level is the biggest factor on a track such as the Nordschleife. On an easier circuit/track where confidence might not be the determing factor, other factors do become relevant. Even cars of the same make rarely perform the same either.
And btw: varying types of brands do make a difference. How big of a difference that is in seconds obviously depends on the track and the length of it, the car etc. On a stretch of road like the Nordschleife at 20km it will amount to at least a few seconds if not more (if the tyre overheats for instance). Heck even on a small 2km track with few straights it's noticable.
RobertR1 said:
I actually never used the T1R, so I wouldn't really be in a position to compare. I did go from Yokohama A048 to the Toyo R888 and have not once looked back, which is great given the R888 are quite a bit cheaper too. It's a popular tyre choice among everything from Lotus to Evo's and heavier cars. I'd give them a try. :smile:
Actually RobertR1 was pretty clearly claiming that video games (and not the comparison) do not take a number of real life features into consideration. Here is what he said:
"Real life factors that can greatly effect laptime but are not considered in game...."
I don't think he could have been much more explicit.
It's dangerous to go down that path anyway. Real life doesn't care but developers need to balance difficulty/details against gaming factors (fun, responsiveness, player skill level). That's why game design matters. As long as the important factors are considered and the handling is fun + realistic enough (e.g., can sense car losing grip), it'd be a good starting point. The micro-level details can be added later on if they increase customer satisfaction.
I use the weight/power ratio as a gauge, and then go shopping. I agree they should show us the short list for purchase.
Special Stage Route 5 is simply gorgeous! Incredible all the way! Nordschleiffe in overcast conditions is just staggeringly beautiful. Two examples of the incredible lighting model at work......I just wished every track had this absurd amount of love and attention. Thats not to say others are bad, it's just there are defo some Premiership and Championship tracks. The driving model is however absolutely second to none with a wheel. Just awe inspiring...........Two weeks in, and i still find new things that just bring a smile to my face!
Well, you can imagine my frustration as I read conjecture and unrealistic expectations from posters who clearly are posting for the sole purpose to say "well it's not as good as you say it is" and then close with "but it's still fun" as if that wipes away the absurdity of their post prior to that.
The fact that the human condition wasn't even mentioned in either of your posts speaks volumes to your perspective with regards to these types of games, and it's heavily skewed in the wrong direction. Even on a simple short circuit, confidence and fear still play a huge part in the outcome of a race or time trial. To think otherwise is naive. Air, wind, weather, or tires combined cannot have the same impact on time as you would see removing any and all fear. This is why people are able to post times on tracks in simulators that are unattainable in real world conditions. Even a seasoned veteran wouldn't tackle the Nurb in the same manner as someone using a wheel in a video game.
They are in each and every way apples to oranges, and not because of wind, weather, or tires.
Also, the expectation that these should be mathematically perfect in some way in order to be relevant at all, or even meaningful is too much. There will always be numerical anomalies in physics engines and other simulations that will cause strange things to happen that otherwise do not occur in real life, and it will be this way for some time to come. Even when I was training Combat Aviation units in the Army and we were using multi-million dollar flight simulators, there were still errors with the simulations. It's inescapable. That said, the conditions that are simulated in GT5 are still relevant, and Robert made it very clear that he didn't believe a single one of the things he listed were in the game, when some of them very much are.
Silly? Surely a driving simulator should be trying to get as close to real life as possible. Ergo an improvement in the simulation should result in a decrease in the delta between real-world lap times and in-game lap times. Thus if GT1 had Car X getting around the Ring in 4 minutes where in real life Car Z would take 8 minutes, and GT2 shows the car taking 5 minutes, GT3 6 minutes, and GT4 7 minutes, you'd see the times getting closer as a result of the simulation moving from a very weak arcade racer to a more accurate simulation (yes, very coarse, unrealistic figures just to illustrate the trends!). If GT5's simulation engine is more sophisiticated that predecessoers, those time advantages caused by not factoring in real-life limitations should be reduced, meaning closer-to-real results.
That's all of course, no brainer, taking all things as equal and accounting for varables. A change in variables like tyres or weight of the driver will add variation to the gam eresults and real-world result. But as others say, these variables aren't going to have a huge difference. the same car on the same track with the same driver isn't going to see a 10% improvement from chaning frmo one brand of slicks to another, unless the intial brand are extremely sucky tyres! A windy day isn't going to add a minute to your lap times on the Ring. So we'd just be looking at same ball-park race times for an accurate simulation, and not exactly the same times. Where in one test of GT4, a Ford GT managed Leguna Seca in 1:38 in game best time, and 1:54 in real life, that difference of 16 seconds (16%) isn't going to be explained by a different brand of tyres and a little more headwind, but a difference between the game and real life. The question is whether the core simulation isn't very accurate, allowing cars to perform better in the game than in RL, or if it's a matter of the drivers.
The ultimate simulation game would have players getting about the same best times, give or take a few percent difference, because the cars' handling and the racing conditions reproduce the physical state of the cars and the mental state of the driver. We should be seeing some more realistic times in GT5 versus GT4 for the same car+track combinations if the simulation has improved.
Pretty much this. And this is in no way specific to GT5. Forza and other have the same issue. The way you would do a proper real life comparison is quite simple. For these games, you'd have the programmed values for the variables I listed. Then match the track and vehicle to conditions and do your laps. The problem I see is rather obvious. We don't know what values are assigned (do we?) for the variables and thus we can't match them the best way possible to real life.
The whole driver factor is a valid to a degree but it mainly applies to the average person/gamer. A top driver can push a car to it's limit around a track. For top tier drivers, pushing a street car to it's limit around a track is not as unfathomnable as being perceived.
Now that I'm thinking about it, you'd want to match the skill level of a top gamer (assuming we're going for best laptime) with a top driver and line up the other variables the best way possible.
Will do next spring and summer
Thanks!
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What car do you drive? Does it have an semi-automatic with paddle shifts? Reason i am asking, since you made this comment about downshifts and locking up the rear wheels i got the impresison you had no idea of real life cars
How does a manual stop you from mechanical overrev which will lock and snap oversteer a rwd car? I'd love to hear your explanation!
Corrected a typo, and...
You're essentially saying the same thing as Phil. It is not simple. The variables change all the time, at every segment of the track. The interactions between the cars also contribute to the changes.
The driver should make the most difference. He should be the key factor driving the car. Not the physics. The physics add more "feel" to the driving without making it impossible to play (or have fun).
Nope. Comparisons are never allowed, not even in real life. Remember: when you compare two track times in real life the wind was different for the two cars so no two track times are comparable. Ever.
That's why even when cars race a track at the same time you don't compare their times. Sunlight moves during the race making comparisons impossible.
The same people practicing in real life and in game will continue to find the game counterpart much easier
It doesn´t but i would guess a semi automatic or automatic at least could/would stop the driver from shifting down. Which would explain why you lacked the knowledge.
This is based on:
Is this something that Forza does? Or is this something you experience in your real life racing?
I never drove a racing car, i drive manual shifts everyday, and there i can, with force, do a downshift that in theory could over-rev the engine, but that would destroy the engine, or be very bad for it´s expected life time. The automatics i have driven would never allow me to over-rev, they just deny any downshifting.
What racing car do you drive?
So the pit crew never, ever radios in and says something like, "well done, you're point 3 seconds up from last lap"? And they never track lap times and see if they are increasing or decreasing, and try to understand why in order to tune the car for its best performance?
In the game there is this ticket system that is used for unlocking cars. People sometimes complain about it because it takes a few more clicks than it used to, but anyway, you can win tickets (or 'slips') for a specific car (most of the time), but you can also win one for a random level x car (say, level 9). When (and in fact, apparently each time - it repeats) you've played about 100 races or raced 2000km, then you get a special 1000 ticket, that gives you a random car out of all of the cars in the game. Some people just got an old mini 1.3, or whatever, but I got incredibly luck - I won the Alfa classic race car ('65) that is 10,000,000 credits! (though apparently you can cheat the system a bit by restarting right after the unlock, then when you boot up the game it's back in your slot again, could be a useful tip)
Anyway, after some Top Gear test tracking to get used to it, I decided to take it to the Nurburgring for a practice one car type race, so that I raced with all the same cars (this one) and I picked the Nurburgring with time of day change and weather change. I had my default set to 5 laps and I ended up driving all 5 of them, all in cockpit view - fantastic experience! One of the most amazing virtual racing I've ever done. I stayed in the pack on purpose, just to look at them, their brake lights go on, etc. When it rains, the spray slowly picks up, doesn't start out with that huge spray right at the start by the way, and this car doesn't make such an extreme spray anyway. The late in the day lighting is so beautiful too, amazing. I was racing in my workroom today on the LCD screen in 1080p, and it looked great - yeah, there's a bit more tearing but I hadn't raced with both changing time of day and changing weather yet, so I can't compare.
I took some pictures and they look incredible. The detail on this model is also insane:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Arwin.van.Arum/GT5#
Anyway, after some Top Gear test tracking to get used to it, I decided to take it to the Nurburgring for a practice one car type race, so that I raced with all the same cars (this one) and I picked the Nurburgring with time of day change and weather change. I had my default set to 5 laps and I ended up driving all 5 of them, all in cockpit view - fantastic experience! One of the most amazing virtual racing I've ever done. I stayed in the pack on purpose, just to look at them, their brake lights go on, etc. When it rains, the spray slowly picks up, doesn't start out with that huge spray right at the start by the way, and this car doesn't make such an extreme spray anyway. The late in the day lighting is so beautiful too, amazing. I was racing in my workroom today on the LCD screen in 1080p, and it looked great - yeah, there's a bit more tearing but I hadn't raced with both changing time of day and changing weather yet, so I can't compare.
I took some pictures and they look incredible. The detail on this model is also insane:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Arwin.van.Arum/GT5#
http://i.imgur.com/MdwQ8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/77qIS.jpg
Two the most real shots i've ever seen. o_0
http://i.imgur.com/77qIS.jpg
Two the most real shots i've ever seen. o_0
RenegadeRocks
Legend
Such screens make me want to buy the game right now, too bad I know practically nothing about cars in real life
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