Nintendo press conf. comments

[DemoCoder]

Averaging samples over time would introduce lag between input and seeing it register on the screen. A capacitor will continuously integrate your signal but will induce a 90 degree phase shift. The more samples you take the smoother the motion you'll create, and the larger the time delay. If you leave it out of the hardware and let the programmers do it, they can decide where to trade off smooth movement for lag, or even implement some prediction, so the cursor might not exactly follow your hand when you move quickly, but it's close enough, then it's precise when you move slowly.

With a high enough sample rate, lag is minimized. You see that with optical mice today. When optical mice first arrived on the PC, hard-core cyberathletes complained of lag and jerky motion. Then optical mice continually increased sampling frequency, until today, USB optical mice are superior to PS/2 ball mice.

 

[NANOTEC]

Fine, then have fun with your "lightgun" emulated games from the 80s and 90s. When I want that, I'll skip the to the arcade and play House of the Dead or SilentScope.

Where can I find a lightgun game that provides free look and movement with a second controller? Must be some secret feature of HoTD that I've never been able to unlock.

 

[DemoCoder]

That reminds me of playing VirtuaCop on the PC with a mouse. That really ruined the game

How can you ruin a came that sucks.

Seriously, gun game shooters are market failures and have been since Duck Hunt.

 

[darkblu]

How can you ruin a came that sucks.

Seriously, gun game shooters are market failures and have been since Duck Hunt.

that must be the reason why i have >100h gameplay time in HOTD2 - i play only market failures : )

 

[OtakingGX]

With a high enough sample rate, lag is minimized. You see that with optical mice today. When optical mice first arrived on the PC, hard-core cyberathletes complained of lag and jerky motion. Then optical mice continually increased sampling frequency, until today, USB optical mice are superior to PS/2 ball mice.

A high enough sample rate gives you the jittery motion you're complaining about. So you need to average a few samples. The more samples you average, the smoother the output, and the longer the delay between input and output. You trade one for the other.

Doubling the sample rate and keeping the same number of samples averaged won't help, you'll start getting jittery again.

 

[Teasy]

Fine, then have fun with your "lightgun" emulated games from the 80s and 90s. When I want that, I'll skip the to the arcade and play House of the Dead or SilentScope.

Firstly, both of those games are on rails so its not really the same thing. Secondly why would you want to spend money playing on an arcade?

 

[thomase]

So let me get this straight...

In Red Steel, the nunchuk controls movement and look via the analog stick and tilt respectively, while the wiimote is used as a pointing device to control the targetting reticule. Isn't there a fundamental problem here regarding arm fatigue? If the pointing device really works like a light gun or laser pointer, you are probably going to want to have your arm extended to improve control and accuracy. On the otherhand, this will quickly become tiring and you'll either want to a) use your other hand to steady your aim (but alas, you can't because of the nunchuk), or b) rest your elbow on your knee or lap which will potentially decrease accuracy and control (i.e. firing from the hip).

Also, regarding looking/turning, the implementation doesn't solve the slow turning problem with console FPS. I'll admit that insta-turning via mouse control on the PC is perhaps less realistic than this scheme, but PC gamers will probably be disappointed anyway. Did anyone else think that turning was going to be controlled by pointing the wiimote past the edges of the screen, with distance past the edge translating to turning speed?

Finally, if aiming is really laser-pointer-style, doesn't this mean that the gameplay experience is dependant upon the size of your TV screen? Bigger screen == bigger targets. The PC mouse analog to this would be higher DPI.

 

[NANOTEC]

Turning can be implemented using the Wiimote or the nunchuck. That's entirely up to develeopers.

 

[thomase]

Turning can be implemented using the Wiimote or the nunchuck. That's entirely up to develeopers.

Yes... I'm not asking how it CAN be implemented, I'm asking how it IS implemented.

 

[StefanS]

So let me get this straight...

In Red Steel, the nunchuk controls movement and look via the analog stick and tilt respectively, while the wiimote is used as a pointing device to control the targetting reticule. Isn't there a fundamental problem here regarding arm fatigue? If the pointing device really works like a light gun or laser pointer, you are probably going to want to have your arm extended to improve control and accuracy. On the otherhand, this will quickly become tiring and you'll either want to a) use your other hand to steady your aim (but alas, you can't because of the nunchuk), or b) rest your elbow on your knee or lap which will potentially decrease accuracy and control (i.e. firing from the hip).

Fran from IGN mentioned slight fatigue, though I don't know for how long he has been playing Red Steele. Moreover, he said that tilting the gun felt more comfortable (the hand position is more neutral anatomically). I guess we'll hear more about this when the more impressions roll in.

Also, regarding looking/turning, the implementation doesn't solve the slow turning problem with console FPS. I'll admit that insta-turning via mouse control on the PC is perhaps less realistic than this scheme, but PC gamers will probably be disappointed anyway. Did anyone else think that turning was going to be controlled by pointing the wiimote past the edges of the screen, with distance past the edge translating to turning speed?
.

Since there's also an accelerometer in the nunchuk they could implement fast turning by strongly jerking the nunchuk unit back. That is likely to be more effective. But again since it wasn't shown in the live-demo we've got to wait for the impressions

 

[NANOTEC]

Yes... I'm not asking how it CAN be implemented, I'm asking how it IS implemented.

It's implemented both ways. RS and Zelda for example. In fact I don't even see why both ways cant be implemented in the SAME game.

Download the special video to see exactly how it works in RS. Very cool video.

http://media.revolution.ign.com/media/821/821973/vids_1.html

 

[thomase]

See my orig post. I was talking about RS.

 

[Rodéric]

Beware of not arguing too much, we have a zero tolerance policy during E3, and even though it didn't officialy start just yet we are already applying the rules...

 

[DemoCoder]

A high enough sample rate gives you the jittery motion you're complaining about. So you need to average a few samples. The more samples you average, the smoother the output, and the longer the delay between input and output. You trade one for the other.

False. If I took 10,000 samples per second, I could average 100 samples, and still have 100hz. Secondly, one does not "average" samples. That is the most primitive form of noise reduction, and of could you could use averaging if you wanted, but a more advanced method would use FFT or DWT to filter noise. We are talking about noise that comes form sensor inaccuracy, not noise that comes from human beings with parkinsons disease. To tackle noise from human movement, one would need to have a sliding filter.

 

[NANOTEC]

See my orig post. I was talking about RS.

Just download the video.

Oh btw is it just me or did Nintendo say they will not reveal all fo the secrets?

 

[pc999]

Oh btw is it just me or did Nintendo say they will not reveal all fo the secrets?

I got the same impression, also they did not show (at least well) lots and lots of potential big selers like Madden, that is strange too.

 

[StefanS]

Not unexpected, but

Broadway is 90nm and SOI Power PC
Hollywood is 90 nm and LSI

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n10/e3_2006/wii/index.html

 

[NANOTEC]

Not unexpected, but

Broadway is 90nm and SOI Power PC
Hollywood is 90 nm and LSI

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n10/e3_2006/wii/index.html

Nice thanks.:smile:

 

[Squeak]

Okay, this goes out to you Nintendo. (yes, I know you are reading this! )

When doing first person perspective stuff, don't use fck'n RTS style "push the screen around" controls dammit!
That will suck for ANY game, no matter the genre.

Dedicate a button to a "mouse lift" function instead.
That is The Right Thing(tm) to do.

 

[StefanS]

More translation:

Wireless LAN（IEEE802.11b/g protocol, moreover, USB.Ethernet connector optional
Through propietary Nintendo protocol wireless communication with DS is possible.

Famicon, Super Famicon, Nintendo64, Sega Megadrive Hudson PC Engine software is downloadable and playable (fee)
Gamecube software, controllers, memory cards and other peripherals are usable (with the exception of the modem adapter, broadband adapter, the game boy player, AV cable and AC adapter)

2 USB 2.0 slots
1 SD Card slot
4 gamecube controller ports
2 gamecube memory card slots
1 AV multimedia output port (new AV cable used)
1 sensor bar connection port

Applications and data is stored in the 512MB of built-in flash memory
Opera Browser
the games of the Virtual Console, the browser etc. is stored in the flash memory to allow for high speed startup

Because of the silent low power standby without rotation of the fan is it possible to stay always connected to the internet (the power consumption is equivalent to a miniature light bulb)
Through the permanent connection to the Internet it is possible to receive messages of friends, push contents (new items, new levels, etc.) etc. even during action (trans note: probably means in-game)

Media:
12 cm Single/Dual layer discs for use in Wii
8cm Nintendo Gamecube discs