News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

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I sympathize with indy's to a point, free trivial publishing with free patches wouldn't make things better for them.

Will it help them get their games off the ground in the first place? No. Will it help them with regards to visibility? No. I think MS should work hard in those areas too. But giving them the ability to bypass the expensive, tedious certification system is also very important.

I'd like to see MS find creative ways to help these indy devs get funded. For example, MS could put an Xbox-specific Kickstarter type app right on the dashboard and let gamers donate right there. Maybe even incentivize gamers to donate or highlight projects that are popular and/or close to their target funding. Maybe even work with publishers to hold contests and let gamers donate and vote for which projects they'd like to see picked up. I'd like to see major coverage of the indy scene too on the dashboard. I think there's a lot of neat content us core gamers would really find interesting to watch based on these projects.

I just think the ruckus over indy's having dev kits (or not having them) is kinda silly. It's not like MS is in Sony's position where only recently they became developer focused in terms of platform design.

The charging for patches means that MS can at least do some trivial QA on a submission and it disuades the publish now fix later mentality.

I understand these pts and agree with their utility. However, I also think there are better ways to approach that problem.
 
While that's true of the bigger publishers, it's actually not that expensive or difficult to become a "publisher".

A friend of mine ran a company that bought up almost complete titles dropped by other publishers, paid a flat fee, and split royalties above a threshold. Pretty much they were a 3 man shop so it's not a huge investment. They are out of business now, it was getting hard to find titles, but indies could certainly band together and create a similar entity.

Were they doing disc releases? AFAIK you don't get XBLA slots unless you also publish full retail games on disc.
 
Durango will run Win 8 apps/games so that'll be the platform indies will publish on.

I think XBLA is going away too, now that all games will be available digitally upon release, it doesn't make sense to have arbitary distinctions between XBLA and 'full' retail titles.
 
Durango will run Win 8 apps/games so that'll be the platform indies will publish on.

I think XBLA is going away too, now that all games will be available digitally upon release, it doesn't make sense to have arbitary distinctions between XBLA and 'full' retail titles.

I agree. Think Phil Spencer alluded to this not that long ago as well.
 
Xbox 360 will be able to this as well. Or at least the upcoming $99 version will.

I've been thinking about this. Could MS release a 360 version with a simple ARM (or Jaguar) SOC + a 32nm XCGPU (with integrated eDram) + ~ 2 GB of DDR3 RAM. Let the XCGPU run all the games, but move the OS functionality and new windows apps to the new SOC.
 
Highly doubtful. MS does not have a build of win 8 for the PowerPC. And it's not a trivial change.

Thurrott on most recent Windows weekly. Doesn't know hardware details but did confirm a new $99 Xbox 360 which will support WinRT platform (ie. Metro apps, not necessarily WOA) though without hardware knowledge who knows what's in it. But that said, its not outside the realm of possibility that they have minWin ported to PowerPC. Makes the most sense so UI and apps can be consistent across all systems but they could certainly exclude existing hardware for technical reasons and clearly much easier to do for Durango being x86.

I think there is a bit of confusion regarding games needing to use WinRT or thick APIs for forward compatibility on Durango. While the system OS provides that for APPS so they multitask nicely and devs can target PCs, tablets, phone, and console with the same code base; proper games aren't forced to run in that environment and can run comparably as they do today.
 
MS does not have a build of win 8 for the PowerPC. And it's not a trivial change.
How much of the OS would be low-level, hardware architecture-dependent code? Bootstrap stuff, sure. I/O, things of that nature would differ from x86, but MS separated that stuff out into a hardware abstraction layer back in the NT days didn't they, so should facilitate porting. And RT on an Xbox wouldn't require as much support as a full-blown desktop OS anyway. No expansion slots, no legacy interfaces and so on.
 
How much of the OS would be low-level, hardware architecture-dependent code? Bootstrap stuff, sure. I/O, things of that nature would differ from x86, but MS separated that stuff out into a hardware abstraction layer back in the NT days didn't they, so should facilitate porting. And RT on an Xbox wouldn't require as much support as a full-blown desktop OS anyway. No expansion slots, no legacy interfaces and so on.
The ARM port took something like a year. To run WinRT on the Xbox, you need more than just the minwin kernel, you need COM, which is a whole nightmare by itself, and has all sorts of features that rely on things not in minwin. I've actually ported audio tests from normal windows to a version of minwin, and it was not trivial, it took months. And that's without worrying about data formats, memory alignment, and endian conversions.

I can see it happening by essentially writing a Xbox title that emulates the full WinRT kernel, that the allows you to load a WinRT app, but the app would have to be recompiled especially for the PowerPC, or the title would have to be a full blown ARM or x86 emulator. Either way, it would take a huge amount of work, and while I hadn't really been in touch with the Xbox 369 team for a year or so (my team broke off from theirs), I'm doubtful.

Edit: admittedly, a lot of the work required got taken care of with the IE port, but I'm still doubtful.
 
...So in light of these complications, the new (rumored?) 360 revision simply contains an ARM CPU then, possibly integrated with the main die, to use the onboard DDR RAM without requiring its own, and is responsible for running the WinRT apps.

Case closed? :D
 
The ARM port took something like a year. To run WinRT on the Xbox, you need more than just the minwin kernel, you need COM, which is a whole nightmare by itself, and has all sorts of features that rely on things not in minwin. I've actually ported audio tests from normal windows to a version of minwin, and it was not trivial, it took months. And that's without worrying about data formats, memory alignment, and endian conversions.

I can see it happening by essentially writing a Xbox title that emulates the full WinRT kernel, that the allows you to load a WinRT app, but the app would have to be recompiled especially for the PowerPC, or the title would have to be a full blown ARM or x86 emulator. Either way, it would take a huge amount of work, and while I hadn't really been in touch with the Xbox 369 team for a year or so (my team broke off from theirs), I'm doubtful.

Edit: admittedly, a lot of the work required got taken care of with the IE port, but I'm still doubtful.

Guys, the Xbox 360 has 512MB of RAM. 512! Unless they are going to up that to something more reasonable (meaning these apps would only run on a new Xbox), then there's no point. In fact, there really isn't any point now considering there's so little RAM, you are only able to run ONE app at a time. It's worse than a smartphone.

Sinking more energy into the 360 media strategy is a waste of time after the 720 is released.
 
I've been thinking about this. Could MS release a 360 version with a simple ARM (or Jaguar) SOC + a 32nm XCGPU (with integrated eDram) + ~ 2 GB of DDR3 RAM. Let the XCGPU run all the games, but move the OS functionality and new windows apps to the new SOC.
That sounds awfully costly to me, 2 SoCs: one likely off the shelves but still money, the other sound like a significant effort, both would have there own pool of ram.

I'm not sure it worse it, especially to be sold at 99$. If Msft were to redesign the 360 in a way they can sell it for cheap, I wonder if moving to 32 nm is the way to vs finding other way to lower costs.
I'm not sure the daughter die is worse integrating in the design, it could be shrunk though to 40 nm.

For the main chip, I'm not sure it is worse the effort to do anything this late. At least I would not try to shrink it, I wonder if they could modify the design so they can use cheap DDR3 instead of GDDR3. In the process they also could bump the amount of memory of the system. I don't know if it doable. They would need to do a lot of tweaking to make sure that the new ram behaves exactly as the old one (a bit like they recreated the latencies induced by the communication between the CPU and GPU in their last revision).

Then they may have to remove the optical media, I may have to remove the HDD slot and any related hardware. Ultimately you end up with something really "bare" even if they were to port windows RT on the devices I wonder about how useful it would be. No matter how I look at it and even taking in account lithography progress there is a lot more in a 360 than say in a Wii.

There are significant issue with the 360 design that prevent it to end in a tiny box, I think the CPU being a speed demon burn a bit too much power, even using more advanced process I would suspect that those 3 cores at 3.2 GHz may end up quiet warm => significant cooling solution.

Overall it doesn't make sense to me. At this point if they want a really cheap 360, or something compatible with the 360, they may as well design something new with BC in mind. In that case it would have make sense to stick to PPC for durango too.

If they emulation ninja can do the trick and they have the R&D budget to design a system compatible with the original 360, I think they should try to use TSMC 40nm as a basis.
The transistor density in their last revision is pretty dreadful, I don't know if it has something to do with the high clock speed at which the CPU operates but still not sexy.
Long story made short I would ask the "emulation ninjas" if they think it is doable to emulate the 360, with more xenon cores running at significant lower clock speed, idem for the GPU (add SIMD array and drop the clock speed), etc. Having followed closely the insightful pov presented during the discussion about the WiiU hardware.. I would not hold my breath...

Again sounds like a massive pain in the a** especially as they dropped the ball on PPC, adding a ARM Soc+RAM to the 360 doesn't sound doable for me at 99$.

EDIT
Another consideration is that I wonder what would be the performance of a good ARM SOC with a good GPU, running at significant higher speed than in phone and tablet, to a point where I wonder if the 360 part of the system would be that interesting / competitive.
 
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To be clear, this is what we're getting:

1. Durango as per vgleaks, runs Win 8 (without the desktop) - the full fat next gen experience.
2. Xbox TV, will be cheap and ARM based, runs Win RT, mainly for streaming video and Win8 apps/games, does not play Durango or 360 games.
3. Revised Xbox 360, MS is hoping to replicate the long tail of the PS2. This will not run Win8 or RT.
 
To be clear, this is what we're getting:
That's all rumors and speculation though. What 3 different (and incompatible!) products all competing with each other for the same space spell out is market fragmentation, which can be extremely damaging to a brand, especially when trying to introduce a new product like durango.
 
That's all rumors and speculation though. What 3 different (and incompatible!) products all competing with each other for the same space spell out is market fragmentation, which can be extremely damaging to a brand, especially when trying to introduce a new product like durango.

Nope, I've been informed that each of those three products are happening.

It just happens to match the rumours and speculation.

Market fragmentation hasn't affected Apple much, and look how many overlapping devices it has.

The rationale is:

Durango for people who want a next gen Xbox 360.

Xbox 361 for price sensitive consumers and emerging markets

Xbox TV for people who are cross shopping an Apple TV/Roku type device or who mainly use their 360's for streaming video/music
 
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