News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[zupallinere]

Thanks for the response.:smile:

In no particular order and for no particular reason:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-07/04/eu-judgement-implications

On 3 July, the European Court of Justice made a pretty important judgement. It said that software makers exhausted their distribution rights when they sell software to a customer -- whether it's on a physical medium or distributed over the web.

That sounds dry, but what it means is that customers can re-sell their digital downloads, and developers have no ability to prohibit second hand sales. It means first off that Oracle won't be able to stop German business UsedSoft from selling "used" licenses of its enterprise PC programs.

I have no idea what Steam will do or Apple etc. They will figure it out.

I am talking in terms of consumer rights and consumer expectations and a failure to understand at the very least the later on the part of MS at this point. This is essentially the context of my response. I thought I was making that clear enough in some of my wording but let me make the case explicitly.

2. Portable apps in almost all cases cost far less than a game on one of these consoles.

Relevance ?

It's up to MS/Publisher to deal with the risk/reward for the consumer. He/She enters into a transaction when buying a product with the hope of liking it. If they don't, with an app 1.99 down the drain. With a 60 dollar purchase they may need a bit more trust. Being able to sell, for a market value, what they bought gives them a chance on recouping losses on a transaction. That is the way it has been for decades and it's up to MS and Publishers to make the case that it is better that this is not the case with what they are selling.

Yes. Wave goodbye to used games.

BRING IT I SAY Let somebody make the case in court. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes, it's not worth it to them to try. Maybe they will in the future ? If so they should do it sooner rather than later. The Autocad case should be enough to spur them but somehow it isn't. I'm fine with DD only as well personally.

It is already that way with my music, any new movies I purchase, my PC games (Steam only) and software for my smart phone.

Somehow console games are different ?

Consoles are different because they live in quite a different landscape than Steam or DVDs or CDS or whathaveyou when it comes to competition. A more competitive environment means you increase the chance of a consumer getting better value for their money.

I as a consumer have accepted that an IOS app or a steam game is something that I can't sell as used. I as a consumer have not said the same thing about a CD for instance or a 360 disc. Let the publishers make the case or bring a lawsuit or use the DRM tools available to it.

In short let them Bring It

I, a consumer, wants to have my software licenses managed digitally online, so that I don't have to bother about discs, locations or who's console I'm on (I could travel to the other side of the world and play MY game on some completely random XBox).

You aren't the rest of the country who spoke up the subject. The deal isn't good enough for them. MS and publishers need to make a better deal or sue somebody.

I bet you can get what you want and other consumers can get what they want when it comes to used games. It's not rocket science it really isn't.

 

[XpiderMX]

EDIT: At the 7 minutes mark he says something really CRUCIAL too -from 6:40 minutes mark on, to 7:30 mins mark-.

I can't see the video... What he said?

 

[egoless]

Delete

 

[Cyan]

I can't see the video... What he said?

I will try to transcribe it (it's mostly literal, but I skipped a few words to cut down the text, I bolded the crucial parts):

"...in whatever area they are in the planet.

And I sympathise with those guys. The fact that... I know duds personally that would love the shit out of playing a Killer Instinct.

And they are going to be in another country where Xbox One isn't supported at all or they can't get online to download the game. That sucks, that really sucks.

I can completely sympathise with those guys. And that's honestly in my opinion one of the worst things about the system.


And the fact that these guys are coming on... like Don... Don Mattrick. I think that's his name (I am not too big with these PR guys' names).

Literally said *if you are a consumer of Microsoft and you don't want to get an Xbox One because of the internet issue we have another system for you, it's called the Xbox 360*. WHAT?

I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD A PR GUY LITERALLY TELL PEOPLE *WE ARE NOT* "WE ARE NOT WHAT YOU WANT*. (CRUCIAL)

It seems honestly that Microsoft doesn't know what the hell is going on on that. That people between the PR department and marketing honestly are not talking to each other about making this.

Because when you release a piece of hardware a piece of hardware especially one that costs 500 hundred dollars you try to make that available for Everybody, right? "

 

[zupallinere]

How can you communicate things well when bits and pieces of what you want to do are strategically leaked such that you already form a massive negative opinion before the whole picture is known? Now that you have a bigger picture, surprise, terms like 'always-online' make sense.

Even now you still have the same people working hard to dismiss removed aspects as no big deal, so they won't look so bad in their blind dismissal. It has to look like there has been no negatives from screaming bloody murder over DRM. Otherwise, people will actually take a step back and actually look at the big picture the next time somebody cries wolf.

You also have to look at it as the ultimate in the drive to zero. The more you devalue Durango, the more you can push people away from the more expensive console. There seems to be some resistance though in regards to the new Kinect http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/06/21 and Cloud http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/. But just look at the comments at those links and see the momentum is still firmly on devaluing one to prop the other.

Some hideous conspiracy against MS .... Must be Sony and Illuminate !!!!

I say enough of this poor Microsoft nonsense. They indeed could have laid out the case in clear language and with a more positive spin on things. I was listening to some podcast .... Weekend Confirmed I think ( not a fan of Garnett too much but sometimes he has John Davison on whom I like... I miss teh 1UP ) and one of the guests threw out a bunch of positive spin off the top of his head that would have sold things far better than the brainiacs in charge of this debacle.

MS management sucks on this issue, it's not a conspiracy it's incompetence open and shut. If GAF forums could somehow REALLY MAKE a huge multinational corporations bend to their will the world would be a very different place I assure you.

Added: Seriously you are citing Penny Arcade as part of this conspiracy ??

 

[AlphaWolf]

How would this affect the always connected/Cloud nirvana were being promised ? As I said love to see how many people have a connections situation that stopped them from downloading games they wanted every month and was also good enough for all of the Cloud Magic and had an issue with swapping discs.

If you have a 100GB data cap, I doubt online/cloud would ever put you over (unless you live in front of your console or you were running into before), if you download 2 games that month, you're already over.

 

[egoless]

Delete

 

[Cranky]

So it's something like a limited library, with ten members per title. Thinking about how that would work, against the worry of missed sales, it sounds quite workable. Any recent game would be actively played, and those waiting to play wouldn't wait too long to share. Any down-time could see someone else have a go and, again, if they like it want to play it while it's otherwise in use, they'll have to buy. A game that isn't being played can be shared around, much like lending discs. The end result is a system that's analogous to the principle of lending that everyone's used to, and not an obvious threat to the bottom-dollar takings of the publishers which explains why they could be in favour.

Sounds like quite a good idea. MS really should have explained it better! It's taken us this long, and insider information, to actually understand what the hell MS's proposition was! I think this is the worst handling of a console policy I can recall. It's even worse than Nintendo Wii U where many people think it's a Wii peripheral. I don't understand how MS could struggle so much to communicate this. They're all over the shop at the moment. It's almost like they hadn't really agreed on policy, and internal conflict that never wanted a change stifled the chances of the new ideas, and then pushed for a change back.

That is the thing though. They were crystal clear on the policy, it was written in simple, grade-school level English. Unfortunately that didn't fit the narrative the hive-mind wanted.

MS made a classic marketing blunder thoughout this early campaign. They assumed that their audience was rational and capable of cogent thought. Everything was quite clear. They prepared the audience for the initial reveal and blatantly said games for E3. However, people were either too stupid or biased to understand.

This whole fiasco has forced me to revise downward my already extremely low view of the general intelligence level of the public. I think I need to add a new zero on my estimate of the proportion non-brain-dead people to 0.001.

 

[zupallinere]

If you have a 100GB data cap, I doubt online/cloud would ever put you over (unless you live in front of your console or you were running into before), if you download 2 games that month, you're already over.

Sorry for those folks but then again I heard a lot of "deal with it" when came to network limitations from MS fan base a month ago . Still they must want more than 1 or 2 large games a month ( now with the CONNECTED world we live in I betcha those downloads will shrink a bit with CLOUD POWER ) and really be unhappy about swapping disks. I don't doubt that there are plenty of folks of that persuasion but I wouldn't call it a large or profitable fraction of the population. Maybe 3 smaller downloads and 1 disk will suffice. Mix and match. Too bad telecom companies suck. Hey MS wants to make deals with oligarchical telecoms and used game selling Gamestop ... you sure MS is on your side

 

[zupallinere]

I found the penny-arcade comic hilarious and on point with exactly what followed. The rest, you are free to interpret as you wish, just like before.

More than fair enough

 

[BRiT]

One of my friends still in the XBox org stated unequivocally that there was no timeout on sharing. It was a single player at a time only, and you "check out" a game, and while you have it checked out, no one else can access it. The checkin and checkout system worked on a one hour granularity.

Thank you for posting this. What was confusing people is the 1 hour checkins/checkouts (license checks).

 

[bkilian]

I will try to transcribe it (it's mostly literal, but I skipped a few words to cut down the text, I bolded the crucial parts):

"And the fact that these guys are coming on... like Don... Don Mattrick. I think that's his name (I am not too big with these PR guys' names).

Literally said *if you are a consumer of Microsoft and you don't want to get an Xbox One because of the internet issue we have another system for you, it's called the Xbox 360*. WHAT?

I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD A PR GUY LITERALLY TELL PEOPLE *WE ARE NOT* "WE ARE NOT WHAT YOU WANT*. (CRUCIAL)

It seems honestly that Microsoft doesn't know what the hell is going on on that. That people between the PR department and marketing honestly are not talking to each other about making this.

Because when you release a piece of hardware a piece of hardware especially one that costs 500 hundred dollars you try to make that available for Everybody, right? "

Small correction, Don Mattrick is not a PR guy. He is the President of IEB. There are exactly 0 people in the reporting chain between him and Steve Ballmer. He probably has a net worth more than everyone on this board added together. Shows you even rich, smart, and successful people can say extremely stupid things.

 

[Cyan]

That is the thing though. They were crystal clear on the policy, it was written in simple, grade-school level English. Unfortunately that didn't fit the narrative the hive-mind wanted.

MS made a classic marketing blunder thoughout this early campaign. They assumed that their audience was rational and capable of cogent thought. Everything was quite clear. They prepared the audience for the initial reveal and blatantly said games for E3. However, people were either too stupid or biased to understand.

This whole fiasco has forced me to revise downward my already extremely low view of the general intelligence level of the public. I think I need to add a new zero on my estimate of the proportion non-brain-dead people to 0.001.

Cranky, it's all Microsoft's fault imho, and the worst marketing ever.

The Chartered Institute of Marketing in the United Kingdom says this about the definition of Marketing -thanks rydimer.

"Marketing is the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably".

You are trying to satisfy a need. You have to make people NEED your product.

Then there is the words from the Youtube guy's video:

I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD A PR GUY LITERALLY TELL PEOPLE *WE ARE NOT* "WE ARE NOT WHAT YOU WANT.

It seems honestly that Microsoft doesn't know what the hell is going on on that. That people between the PR department and marketing honestly are not talking to each other about making this.

A PR guy, PR... was telling people. "We are not what you want".

That's like saying "We are not what you need". First rule of marketing (satisfy people's needs).


I really really like the Xbox One as no one can imagine, and I believe it can face criticism like any other console of the next generation 'cos the product is so damn good that it will succeed and has -imho- the biggest potential of the next gen consoles, but to me that's the worst marketing I've seen and what caused the DRM debacle.

 

[Cyan]

Small correction, Don Mattrick is not a PR guy. He is the President of IEB. There are exactly 0 people in the reporting chain between him and Steve Ballmer. He probably has a net worth more than everyone on this board added together. Shows you even rich, smart, and successful people can say extremely stupid things.

Wow, I stand corrected then. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't know that IEB stands for, but thanks for that, and wow, just wow, again at the comment on the net thing.

Have you ever thought about being a mod here or something like that? You are honest and trustable and kind, that would make for one hell of a mod if you ask me!!

 

[Cyan]

Again, bkilian, in my opinion they failed to communicate that people need the console.

When you need someone or something, you are at the mercy of that person or thing. It's called dependence. :/

Let's say you are married to a man/woman who earns money for both and satisfies your every need because he/she is good to you and you don't have a job.

Then they decide to leave you one fine morning, and your life is over.

The best description of this are Bill Gates' famous words "You make people need you".

Those words have been portrayed in the movie "The pirates of Silicon Valley".

Transcription:

Spoiler

"You know how you survive?

You make people need you.

You survive.... because you make them need what you have.

And then they have nowhere else to go.

Right now, we are dead. Nobody needs us.

(....)

You know they say in the mafia: "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".

PERFECT ULTRA COMBO.

 

[Vertrucio]

You know, it really does boil down to a horrific and arrogant marketing and first message. To the level of the PS3's launch.

Think of it this way, what if the first messages were clear and an accurate representation of this mythical wondrous digital utopia, that they can say anything about now because they don't actually have to implement anymore (on both sides)? Then, they could say how they have this wonderful stopgap that was meant for you, the consumer, to help you bridge the digital gap with these discs you can buy in store. But don't think of them like the usual console discs. These are just pre-downloaded games for you to install.

Same goes for the cloud. Instead of pretending it's rainbows and unicorns. Actually have more real world representations of cloud usage, such as what Respawn is reporting, and then go on to tell everyone that now every developer has access to these resources. (Which I still haven't found out whether it's part of the usual XB1 development fees, or costs extra)

 

[Kb-Smoker]

Same goes for the cloud. Instead of pretending it's rainbows and unicorns. Actually have more real world representations of cloud usage, such as what Respawn is reporting, and then go on to tell everyone that now every developer has access to these resources. (Which I still haven't found out whether it's part of the usual XB1 development fees, or costs extra)

It cost extra. Maybe i was the only one that thought it was free to developers and xbl gold fees were funding it. Maybe this is why we have no multiplatform game using it. Only 1st/2nd party games...

Most importantly to us, Microsoft priced it so that it’s far more affordable than other hosting options – their goal here is to get more awesome games, not to nickel-and-dime developers. So because of this, dedicated servers are much more of a realistic option for developers who don’t want to make compromises on their player experience, and it opens up a lot more things that we can do in an online game.

http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/

 

[AlphaWolf]

Wow, I stand corrected then. Thanks for clearing that up. I don't know that IEB stands for, but thanks for that, and wow, just wow, again at the comment on the net thing.

Have you ever thought about being a mod here or something like that? You are honest and trustable and kind, that would make for one hell of a mod if you ask me!!

Interactive Entertainment Business

 

[ninzel]

Isn't it just possible that it wasn't a failing in the sense of a lack of understanding or communication, but that ms was simply offering something that people clearly understood they didn't want?
I knew what ms was offering and what they wanted in return and it simply didn't work for me.
It didn't fit with how I want to use my console and consume my media.

 

[zupallinere]

It's not the most elegant solution but how about selling a DDD ( Digital Download Disc ) online only with all of the caveats and benefits associated with the original MS plan. It's opt in. Sure 2 skus suck compared to one but if the original idea was so awesome ....