News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

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Over a down clock that you wouldn't even know existed if it weren't for "insiders"?

You're either a gamer or you're not. You're either into gaming or you're not. If you're only into gaming on a certain company's platform then you're doing it wrong (probably). If you were a gamer looking for the most powerful platform there your choice is now and always has been very clear (a good PC, if it isn't obvious).

The reactions to this rumor are amazing.

When people's intuitions and what they believe suddenly don't work and are forced to face reality, overreactions are not uncommon.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I find most of the comments on the under-clock stuck somewhere between Denial and Anger, and some I categorize as "drunk".

Personally I'm still waiting for more concrete evidence but so far there's nothing about this that strikes me as illogical or unbelievable.

Yield issues have crossed my mind before but I never expected it to manifest itself in this way. Not overclocking it seemed fine, but underclocking it was a bit of a surprise.
 
Does anyone understand how yield affects MS outside of volumes?

Besides volumes (launch availability) and yield effects on performance (clocks), I don't think people much care. Why should we? Is there info staring at us from the yield rumors that we should be recognizing? Or are yields not the issue for MS?

If yields aren't the issue, then why/what effect does downclocking the GPU have on the esram? An issue where improved process isn't going to correct it?

Or is this just Fermi Part II?
 
Over a down clock that you wouldn't even know existed if it weren't for "insiders"?

You're either a gamer or you're not. You're either into gaming or you're not. If you're only into gaming on a certain company's platform then you're doing it wrong (probably). If you were a gamer looking for the most powerful platform there your choice is now and always has been very clear (a good PC, if it isn't obvious).

The reactions to this rumor are amazing.
I am a gamer, I played on the PC, although I play simple games on the PC nowadays -Age of Empires 2 HD, and so on-. I also had the Xbox -my first console- and the GC, and played on my brother's PS2 (also at a friend's house). I had the Xbox 360, and played the PS3 at a friend's house, especially sport games. PS4 is interesting because of its exclusives -GT6 especially, Knack, and KZ)

However, time is going to be a constraint in my life and I wanted the Xbox One to be my machine of choice for the next generation as a whole.

What can I tell you, I am SO disappoint. :cry:

I've spent a LOT of money in games and applications on the Xbox 360, I even had paid Xbox Live til November 2014, and Microsoft comes up with this.... :???:

It's not fair, and I am bloody sick with it, pretty fed up of the situation if this is true. I trusted them and it seems like only individuals like bkilian are trustable in the company, not the company itself.
 
I wonder what would happen to the internet if at E3, multiplat games ended up looking better on the Xbox One? I think people would spontaneously combust.

BTW - not saying that is going to happen or even implying it is going to happen. It is just as ridiculous as people saying that the Xbox One is DOOOOOMED. But considering all the doom and gloom when almost nothing has been shown for either console has me reminded of how incredibly gullible and sheeplike the vast majority of internet forumers are.

I think every sane and reasonable person is actually waiting to see what Sony and Microsoft show at E3 before even attempting to predict how either console is going to do. And I'm going to bet that even after that most of them will be wrong once this fall rolls around. :)

Thus far we only have Microsoft talking about their living room strategy for the Xbox One. They've always been planning on showing the games at E3. So at E3, I'll finally be able to form an opinion about their gaming strategy. Maybe it's crap. Maybe it's good. But I certainly won't know until then.

Then again for me, it doesn't much matter as I'm still going to do all my gaming on PC unless there's some incredible exclusive revealed that I don't think will come to PC. And thus far, there isn't even a hint of anything like that on either console.

Regards,
SB

So you're saying it'll be an all CGI trailer lineup on stage? :LOL:
 
I wonder what would happen to the internet if at E3, multiplat games ended up looking better on the Xbox One? I think people would spontaneously combust.

BTW - not saying that is going to happen or even implying it is going to happen. It is just as ridiculous as people saying that the Xbox One is DOOOOOMED.

i dunno, there seems to be a long subtext at gaf among the insiders of prepping people for exactly that. eg, the running so called rumor that early durango kits had a 7970 and thats why e3 games will look so good, but conveniently will be downgraded hugely by release.

i've definitely noticed it and it's odd.

So you're saying it'll be an all CGI trailer lineup on stage?

so, sony e3 2005 :LOL:
Personally I'm still waiting for more concrete evidence but so far there's nothing about this that strikes me as illogical or unbelievable.

yeah, there hasnt been a legit insider confirm the downclock.

No resolution or frame rate requirements confirmed for Xbox One games.

and then there's another thread that says forza 5 is confirmed 1080p/60...

that said regardless of 1.2 tf or even less, it seems like a very sensible idea to me. hell no matter how many flops it's likely sensible, just as carmack suggested last gen a dev should try for a photorealistic 640x480 game if they wished.

of course sony will (quietly, and without criticism) copy as usual i suppose. otherwise ps4 stuck at 1080p will sap some of it's alleged advantage.
 
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
You know, I was thinking exactly this myself (and chuckling a little, as I was reading some of the more spittle-flecked posts).

Like you, I would prefer some actual concrete information first, I'm totally not assuming this is true, rumors - even double-confirmed rumors - have frequently been wrong in the past.

That said however, that we haven't seen any concrete dismissals either is also slightly telling, which means this just might be true after all. And it wouldn't be totally without prescident either, every console gen past the SNES have had downclocks; N64, XBox AND the Gamecube, PS3 were all downclocked on their GPUs before being released. Gamecube (and Xbox) both had upclocks for their CPUs simultaneously with the downclock might be added. N64 had downclocks on both CPU and GPU as it were.

...Not that any of that has any bearing on what might be happening today. Just a bit of history and remeniscing from an old man, that's all. :D
 
So you're saying it'll be an all CGI trailer lineup on stage? :LOL:

Well... If say Sony push for 60fps 1080p, and the dev implements 30fps 1080p (or even 720p) for Xbox One, for some games is it possible to have better effects in the latter ?

The developers may also spend more time crafting the Xbox One version if MS pay them.
 
It does seem likely that a PS4 should be cheaper to make than a XBONE, dunno about the 8GB GDDR5 though.. but there is Kinect 2 and a big APU in the XBONE that needs money.. good for us that Microsoft has alot of money.. they can really give them away if needed. Another positive thing is that Sony wont be needing to bleed money to the same extent as they did with PS3.

The difference betwen 8Gb GDDR5 and 8GB DDr3 in cost is HUGE. Probably $100.

Hell even NVidia's $400 cards only include 2Gb GDDR5 standard. They would not even go to 4Gb with the newly released GTX 770. The Titan with 6GB is $999. GTX 780 with 5Gb is $650. 2Gb on the 7970/680 runs $60 premium In think (2GB 680=400, 4G 680~460 IIRC)

Now we have all this talk of huge APU's, problems, in XB1 to counteract that, but at worst those will be temporary. Yields never stay bad.

Some have estimated the APU at ~420 mm, size alone should not make that unmanageable. GK110 is 550mm^2, and 7970 is 365mm^2

I'll eat my hat if PS4 is priced less than Xbone.
 
It depends on the type of memory.

So one rumor is massive transistor count (6T or 8T) or "true" SRAM. If that rumor is true there are a couple advantages of that route:

1. It is common practice to characterize a new process with a huge SRAM chip to gain yield information/drive yield improvement. (See the Intel test SRAM PDF)
2. It would be almost identical to L1 or L2 cache apart from the application. So very well understood and working fine on many other CPUs and APUs running in the same fabs.
3. SRAM is not the same tricky animal as eDRAM (or even worse FLASH) for gradients in process and temperature within a die. SRAM is actually much simpler and "relatively" trouble free compared with DRAM/eDRAM.
4. SRAM is used as L1 and L2 by IBM, Intel, AMD, everyone. It does not have problems in the applications with the big gradients across the die. Keep in mind true 6T/8T SRAM is digital output. There is no sense amplifier like there is in DRAM. And no similar FLASH wear nightmares especially with MLC.

Also look at the bank structure in the Intel die (PDF link below). A large SRAM is not a big monolithic block, it is subdivided into repeated smaller blocks. You can see that in AMD or Intel die photos too.

Next if it is on-die then the bandwidth could be extreme. (Could be and should be. If the bandwidth is low then it points to the strong possibility of off die like in the 360 eDRAM and then the yield and other rumors really make no sense.)

If it is off-die then the bandwidth is not as high but then the monolithic SOC is much smaller and yields are much much less of an issue. If off die we are at Sony APU size and no on-die eSRAM so the rumors and bashing can not be sustained.



Now there is another variant of the 32MB eSRAM rumor and the pros and cons should not be mixed. (I am seeing people pointing out all the bad possibilities of all of the combinations at the same time, that is illogical.)



The other variant is if the 32MB eSRAM is using "SRAM-like" eDRAM or 1T SRAM where it is really eDRAM (quite dense) and then there is a bunch of logic that makes that memory look like SRAM to the rest of the system. For example, it hides the refresh.

Note that there are many variants of these types of SRAM like DRAM. Many names and pros/cons.

So if this is the route then there are pros and cons:

1. The transistor count and die size is now much smaller (if on-die). So you can not add the "massive waste of die size and/or transistor count" of the 6T/8T possibility to the challenges of 1T SRAM or eDRAM. It is one or the other, not both.
2. On die it again can have very high bandwidth, so high that a system total of 200 GB/Sec look too low.
3. If it is off-die the APU is again smaller and much easier to yield. But the bandwidth goes down and the I/O power consumption jumps up.
4. Now to your question: Yes, if it is eDRAM/1T SRAM there can be problems with temperature and process variation. For example, if the array is too big and the variations (from process and/or temperature) are too high you can expect problems with leakage, sense amplifiers and error rates. So you have a sensitive "in a way analog" amplifier involved which is not involved in 6T or 8T. But you see they have known this for many years in the DRAM world and break things up into smaller blocks that look like tiles on a checker board if you look at a DRAM die shot. I think the wikipedia page for DRAM has a picture of a Micron DRAM die where you can easily see the structure if you want.



Here is the Intel PDF: Worth at least looking at the photos to see the subdivision in the structure of the memory array.

http://download.intel.com/pressroom/kits/events/idffall_2009/pdfs/IDF_MBohr_Briefing.pdf
That was a very, very interesting read. Thanks for sharing and welcome to the forums. We should know soon what's the actual cause of the yields issues, if it exists at all.

Regards

-Cose
 
The difference betwen 8Gb GDDR5 and 8GB DDr3 in cost is HUGE. Probably $100.

Hell even NVidia's $400 cards only include 2Gb GDDR5 standard. They would not even go to 4Gb with the newly released GTX 770. The Titan with 6GB is $999. GTX 780 with 5Gb is $650. 2Gb on the 7970/680 runs $60 premium In think (2GB 680=400, 4G 680~460 IIRC)

Now we have all this talk of huge APU's, problems, in XB1 to counteract that, but at worst those will be temporary. Yields never stay bad.

Some have estimated the APU at ~420 mm, size alone should not make that unmanageable. GK110 is 550mm^2, and 7970 is 365mm^2

I'll eat my hat if PS4 is priced less than Xbone.

You need to put down a better bet than that. I don't think too many people are interested in you eating your hat.





On second thought, upload yourself eating a hat to youtube and I'll take your offer.
 
Would be funny if the downclock isn't even true. egg on GAF's face in that huge over 400k views already thread.

If so I think they should ban thuway, proelite, BruceleeRoy, chubigans, Cboat, the few hundred fanboy trolls that descended on it to attack Xbox, hell everybody associated with the thing just nuke it from orbit. :LOL:

Sadly I doubt any of that will happen should these rumors prove false (and more and more my spidey senses are tingling, since the real insiders refuse to confirm a clock downgrade)
 
We should know soon what's the actual cause of the yields issues, if it exists at all.

That's something that is unlikely to ever be known except at a Microsoft Financial Report conference call in which they may reveal to shareholders any problems that faced the Xbox One if it underperforms or slips.

That is

1. Assuming there is even a problem that isn't solvable without a downclock.
2. Assuming Xbox One misses sales projections.
3. Assuming Xbox One slips past launch date.

Then we might learn about it through a Quarterly Financials conference call sometime in Spring of 2014. And out of those, only 2 or 3 might prompt Microsoft to include those details when disseminating financial performance to shareholders.

Regards,
SB
 
Would be funny if the downclock isn't even true. egg on GAF's face in that huge over 400k views already thread.
If so I think they should ban thuway, proelite, BruceleeRoy, chubigans, Cboat, the few hundred fanboy trolls that descended on it to attack Xbox, hell everybody associated with the thing just nuke it from orbit. :LOL:
Sadly I doubt any of that will happen should these rumors prove false (and more and more my spidey senses are tingling, since the real insiders refuse to confirm a clock downgrade)

So if the rumors prove false , 1.2tf would be just fine ;)
 
More interesting conspiracy theory (likely nonsense but hey) from a gaffer

I've talked to more people since then though and this isn't the usual jostling for publishers on stage that happens at E3. Microsoft is throwing BIG money around to reverse course on idea that they aren't a games console. The rumors are that PS4 versions of multiplats, by those who do take the money, won't be shown AT ALL. Not on stage and not on the show floor.

All I can think if that's true is why the hell didn't MS throw a little money into a couple more CU's and save the headaches :LOL:

That's why power is so important among other things. NOT being powerful enough can prove very costly indeed.

So if the rumors prove false , 1.2tf would be just fine

At this point, yeah :LOL:

1.2 vanilla TF's would be weak, but I think the ESRAM can maybe make it 1.2 turbocharged teraflops :LOL:
 
I am a gamer, I played on the PC, although I play simple games on the PC nowadays -Age of Empires 2 HD, and so on-. I also had the Xbox -my first console- and the GC, and played on my brother's PS2 (also at a friend's house). I had the Xbox 360, and played the PS3 at a friend's house, especially sport games. PS4 is interesting because of its exclusives -GT6 especially, Knack, and KZ)

However, time is going to be a constraint in my life and I wanted the Xbox One to be my machine of choice for the next generation as a whole.

What can I tell you, I am SO disappoint. :cry:

I've spent a LOT of money in games and applications on the Xbox 360, I even had paid Xbox Live til November 2014, and Microsoft comes up with this.... :???:

It's not fair, and I am bloody sick with it, pretty fed up of the situation if this is true. I trusted them and it seems like only individuals like bkilian are trustable in the company, not the company itself.

If the XB1 came with 2 HD 8990 and an 8 core i7 but only played Halo Kart, Super Spartan Bros and a bunch of HD versions of Apple like game apps because it had no third party support, I doubt you would any happier than you are now about the XB1.

A hardware performance advantage bore MS a distant 2nd place and 25 million consoles while parity with the PS3 bore MS 75 million in console sales. All the while the PS2 managed 150 million with lesser hardware against its competitors. Why? Because the library is far more important than the hardware. Does that mean that ipad like hardware can compete in the hardware space? Probably not. But the XB1 isn't offering ipad like performance and both the PS4 or XB1 provide a performance level that can easily be out done with a few hundred dollars of investment into a PC. You don't console game for the hardware performance, you console game for the library.

If the XB1 shows off a bunch exclusive titles, you find compelling, that have far better IQ than the 360 titles you are playing on now then why is that not enough? If you really like and have a lot of loyalty to Nissan while spending your last 5 years driving around in a Maxima then why should a better spec competitor keep you from potentially enjoying a GT-R?

Whats the point of being angry about it. The 360 will still be around next year. And you can simply tape a XB1 logo on your PS4 and then turn your 360 and watch the XBOX logo screen and let melody play before you hit input and switch over to your PS4 title. You get the XB1 you always wanted with an extra button push and $10 dollars in stickers.
 
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