More on next-gen games disk space: DAVID BRABEN (Frontier Developments)

[aldo]

The 360 is pretty well here now, and I think we all have a good idea of what to expect; the PS3 and Revolution are perhaps darker horses. Perhaps one of the most significant elements of the PS3 is the Blu-Ray disc technology. I am a little nervous that with streamed data (ie where data is loaded constantly from disc), the Xbox 360 will still be quite restricted because of the DVD format disc. -CVG

This looks to be a recurring theme and it might be the only real weakness of the X360. It will be further magnified when movies come out on HD disks next year.

However you can't fault MS for this, as sticking with the DVD format is probably their only real choice if they want to get the systems out this fall. You have to imagine that they will include an HD drive sometime next year when the technology is fully in place and they can make a clearer choice.

-aldo

 

[Titanio]

You have to imagine that they will include an HD drive sometime next year when the technology is fully in place and they can make a clearer choice.

Which would/will be useless for games.

Also, I'm not sure how unlikely it would have been to have a next-gen dvd drive in X360 if they had announced it as having that back at E3. IIRC, getting hardware this year isn't a problem, or wouldn't be a problem if you had a product for it to go into (I believe Samsung said they'd bring players to the market whether the movie studios were ready or not - although they may have since backed off on that). Sure, it would cost them, but I doubt it wouldn't have been possible. A decision to include a HD-DVD drive from the start in X360 could also have been the kick in the ass the HD-DVD camp needed to get things in gear properly for this year.

BTW, Braben also had an interview with Edge last week in which he commented on the next-gen systems:

http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archives/2005/09/faq_david_brabe.php

Please make a new Elite! /wish

 

[dukmahsik]

um, include more disks then. that is the con. the pro is it is way cheaper than BR disks.

 

[Titanio]

um, include more disks then. that is the con. the pro is it is way cheaper than BR disks.

Multiple DVDs aren't going to be cheaper than a Bluray disc, certainly not in the mid to long term. (I'd heard the premium for Bluray is something like 20%?)

Asides from being annoying in any game, disc-swapping suits some games less than others in more fundamental ways (e.g. a MMORPG, or a GTA type game).

I think the issue Braben is talking about is replicating data across a disc to lower seek-time (and speed up streaming).

 

[dukmahsik]

Multiple DVDs aren't going to be cheaper than a Bluray disc, certainly not in the mid to long term. (I'd heard the premium for Bluray is something like 20%?)

Asides from being annoying in any game, disc-swapping suits some games less than others in more fundamental ways (e.g. a MMORPG, or a GTA type game).

I think the issue Braben is talking about is replicating data across a disc to lower seek-time (and speed up streaming).

like i said there are trade offs, and for those people who are too lazy to change out a disk...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Monkey Island 2 on Amiga, 1991. 12 floppy disks. Me and my bro' played through off floppies. 2 disk drives, but the game would load a bit of one disk, a bit off another, a bit of a third disk, first disk again please. Anyone complaining about swapping a game DVD once in a while is a sissy!

 

[Titanio]

like i said there are trade offs, and for those people who are too lazy to change out a disk...

What happens when you're playing a MMORPG and it asks you to switch discs? What are you missing while you're swapping that disc?

See what I mean?

Also, if you want a seamless open world with lots of streaming, replicating data across two discs does not make a lot of sense. You could replicate data relating to just one area of the world on one disc, but then you're "breaking" the open world - and you're going to need maybe 7 or 8 DVDs to match the capacity for replicated data as one Bluray disc. (I'm by no means an expert on data management on discs, but this is what struck me when he talks about streaming data etc. I already expect someone to come in and correct me on this )

 

[scooby_dooby]

If you're playing a MMORPG you have a HDD to cache to. Why replicate data across a disk when you can ust cache it on the HDD and stream from there at faster speeds anyways?

I think this streaming "problem" can't really be discussed until we know the read speeds for the BR drive, if BR discs have half the read speed, then I don't see how the duplication of data can outweight the slow transfer speed and seek times.

There's really no reason to believe games will get bigger than 7.4 GB. The only thing that would require this much space is massive ammounts of CGI.

If you look at current game, they are small, like 2 or 3 GB usually. When you strip away the audio and video(CG) the actual game engines files are usually only around 1/3 of the total disc space. Like 1 or 1.5 GB, or less.

So any normal game that doesn't use hours of CGI, or hours and hours of audio, has tons-o-room, and typically CGI heavy games are RPG's. RPG's is the one genre where swapping discs is not really bothersome in the least.

 

[Titanio]

If you're playing a MMORPG you have a HDD to cache to.

Do you? Not necessarily. Thus the disc remains the common denominator (the restrictor).

I think this streaming "problem" can't really be discussed until we know the read speeds for the BR drive, if BR discs have half the read speed, then I don't see how the duplication of data can outweight the slow transfer speed and seek times.

Replication will improve seek time, AFAIK. Your read speed relates to transfer rate.

There's really no reason to believe games will get bigger than 7.4 GB. The only thing that would require this much space is massive ammounts of CGI.

If you look at current game, they are small, like 2 or 3 GB usually. When you strip away the audio and video(CG) the actual game engines files are usually only around 1/3 of the total disc space.

Well, off the top of my head I know devs like those of Enchant Arm are filling one disc before they even think of movies. The likes of Epic think games will be running over 20GB next-gen, and I doubt that has much to do with CGI (certainly Epic's own games don't use a lot of CGI). Most current games are not a good indicator of what will be needed over the next 5 or 6 years, I don't think.

 

[scooby_dooby]

It may improve seek times but they may very well still be longer than a regular DVD at 12x.

And yes, MMORPG's have been stated multiple times, by peter moore himself, as an exception to the no-HDD rule. MMO's have the option of requiring a HDD if they need it.

And before you start talking about lowest common denomitor, the vast majority of online gamers will have a HDD. And online gamers is the target audience for MMO's.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The likes of Epic think games will be running over 20GB next-gen.

They're last xbox game was 2.1 GB including audio. Somehow their games will increase in size 10fold? Doubtful IMO.

I don't argue that near the end of te lifecyle DVD will be running thin, but I think the number of games that run into this probelm will be very very small, mostly RPG's, which will simply use multiple discs.

 

[Titanio]

They're last xbox game was 2.1 GB including audio. Somehow their games will increase in size 10fold? Doubtful IMO.

Well they said it! And It's not the first time it'll have happened over one generation..

Also, re. MMORPGs, Epic again have said that even MMORPGs wouldn't necessarily need a hard disk..so I think you will have some that won't be HDD-only. MMORPGs are a classic example, but not the only ones.

 

[Urian]

If the memory doesn´t fail to me some months ago we have a rumour about a pack of HDD with a special edition of Halo2 for 360.

I believe that the rumour will be true, but with Halo3.

 

[seismologist]

So the principal behind streaming data is that when the textures go over 256mb you can just dma them from the disk? Is that what he's talking about?

If that's the case then I see the DVD space being a limitation.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

Streaming textures from a slow optical drive?! Yuk. Mark my words, you'll be able to count games that use more than 10GB next gen on one hand. I'm just not convinced that developers are going to go from barely filling up half a DVD9 for the majority of games to going over 20GB in the course of a generation.

Please don't use the cartridge to CD to DVD thing either because the increase in storage capacity is exponential. DVD9 still has plenty of life in it.

 

[seismologist]

I'm just saying, with more disk space available we'll probably see some different techniques used that weren't even considered in the past.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Well they said it! And It's not the first time it'll have happened over one generation..

Also, re. MMORPGs, Epic again have said that even MMORPGs wouldn't necessarily need a hard disk..so I think you will have some that won't be HDD-only. MMORPGs are a classic example, but not the only ones.

As a partial aside, Peter Moore at TGS said that the HDD could be required by MMO games. He's probably right (as in, not just coming up with PR). It was the first time I recall an MS employee confirming that.

Anyway, Rein said that, yeah. Rein says a lot of things. So do Ballmer and Molyneux. Rein also said that UT2004 took 6.6 GB which is only accurate if you look at the super-mega-version of UT2004 (which includes a bunch of stuff you'll not find in a console game soon). It's quite possible that if he stretched one truth, he stretched the other.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

I'm just not convinced that developers are going to go from barely filling up half a DVD9 for the majority of games to going over 20GB in the course of a generation..

Textures are typically designed to fit memory and bandwidth constraints. Theres a huge increase in memory and bandwidth no?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well the textures in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion seems to be pretty damn sweet, the game is rumoured to include some 250hours of gameplay, and has over 50 hours of audio (that's >3GB dedicated solely to audio) yet they manage to fit on a 7.4GB disc.

If you look at last gen, Elder Scrolls was ~3GB, and over the 4 years that followed there was no considerable increase in game size, 4 years later the majority are still coming in at GB.

 

[aaronspink]

Well, off the top of my head I know devs like those of Enchant Arm are filling one disc before they even think of movies. The likes of Epic think games will be running over 20GB next-gen, and I doubt that has much to do with CGI (certainly Epic's own games don't use a lot of CGI). Most current games are not a good indicator of what will be needed over the next 5 or 6 years, I don't think.

If EPIC needs 20GB then they should be shot for being incompetent. What are they going to use 20GB for? Their current game takes us less than 4GB.