"Blu-ray support a last minute switch, Microsoft says..."

[avaya]

Customers are not buying 'dell' or 'hp' they are buying Windows and intel, dell and HP just ahppen to be selling it. Wintel is going to use whatever leverage they have to push the success of the format. What does that mean? I dont think its clear all opportunities they have but I dont see it out of the realm of possibility that blu-ray is 'unsupported' in windows MCE. The way i see it, Dell and HP can play along or customers will find other vendors that produce the products that meet the Wintel specs and exploit all the features of future versions.

Aside from 'installing codecs' i dont see how they have any leverage over wintel.

J

For desktops the OEM brand, especially Dell basically sells itself. People nowawdys take it as a given that you'll get MS software + Intel hardware in the box.

Wintel's monopoly power is substantially weakened in this instance. Both OEMs can install the codecs and drivers necessary for Blu-Ray functionality within Windows, not much Wintel can do about that.

I'm somewhat disbelieving of the scenario where consumers will switch from Dell and HP to another OEM (which one comes close?) because of the disc drive issue alone.

I think the war could be over before we get to the point where the PC side of things begins to count for a whole lot.

HD-dvd has 4 of the 5 major US movie studios on board

BDA: Sony Pictures, Disney, FOX

HD-DVD: TimeWarner, Paramount, Universal

Split down the middle. Add the hardware backers and BDA has the advantage.

This is what is really sad though, those studios are equally split between the two. So many big name movie franchises split up. The stupidty of it all is amazing.

 

[AlphaWolf]

BDA: Sony Pictures, Disney, FOX

HD-DVD: TimeWarner, Paramount, Universal

Split down the middle. Add the hardware backers and BDA has the advantage.

This is what is really sad though, those studios are equally split between the two. So many big name movie franchises split up. The stupidty of it all is amazing.

Well you forgot new-line cinemas for HD-DVD. And I wouldn't be so quick so say hardware backing gives BDA an advantage either with the Chinese backing HD-DVD. Anyway I was merely trying to make it clear that blu-ray doesn't have a significant advantage in terms of backers.

 

[Arty]

WOW!! Interesting points. I didn't think they would let what MS and Intel say just any ol' thing.

1. "From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150% more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slim-line notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD- Java(TM)," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business. "The technical merits and consumer benefits of Blu-ray Disc make it the ideal solution for HP's customers."

Notice that HP said this not Sony.

2. "It is surprising that Tuesday's announcement is not aligned with that of the vast majority of the computer industry and is contrary to our consumer research."

You know I've been thinking about that for the last day now.

3. Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at
launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE

Big, Big, Big, BD-ROM anybody? I know someone here was questioning this.

4. Hybrid Disc: Blu-ray Disc was the first format to introduce a hybrid
disc that could hold both high and standard definition versions of a
movie on a single disc. The Blu-ray Hybrid Disc is the more elegant
solution as it holds both versions of the film on the same side of the
disc, which provides for easy labeling and greater ease of use for
consumers.


This is something that most people here should have really known by now.

5. Based on this feedback and a comparison of the two formats, Dell has no doubt that Blu-ray Disc best meets the needs of computer users and provides the type of open industry standards needed to drive innovation and growth of the format across all platforms -- consumer electronic, personal computers and gaming consoles."


That's what I want to hear.

Currently, HD DVD is the only next-gen format to provide for the ability to legally make copies of optical content.

In his view, HD DVD is at 30GB, while Blu-ray is at 25GB. On paper, Blu-ray has 50GB support, but outside of a lab context, the 50GB disc is missing in action.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/microsoft-hd-dvd.ars

 

[London Geezer]

outside the lab, outside the lab...

People keep repetaing that, but "outside the lab" you won't even find a single layer HDDVD, let alone a 30GB double layer one.

 

[expletive]

For desktops the OEM brand, especially Dell basically sells itself. People nowawdys take it as a given that you'll get MS software + Intel hardware in the box.

Wintel's monopoly power is substantially weakened in this instance. Both OEMs can install the codecs and drivers necessary for Blu-Ray functionality within Windows, not much Wintel can do about that.

See how many people buy either Dell or HP with AMD running Linux. I dont see it any other way then its wintels world, the resellers are just along for the ride.

J

 

[hongcho]

There is a difference between a "lab" and a "test line". The former is not for mass production. The latter is testing for mass production.

From what I gather from the excellent thread on AVSForum, BD SL, HD-DVD SL and HD-DVD DL are at the "test line" stage. The rumor is that an HD-DVD replicator has a HD-DVD 30/9 hybrid test line running for a while, but Toshiba has not provided a player for that.

There is no report/evidence of BD DL being out of the "lab" stage yet.

HD-DVD 30/9 hybrid spec is not yet official, but expected to be resolved before last SC meeting this year.

BD hybrid spec is not yet in BD spec.

AACS still has not had an official spec, but expected to be done this year.

Hong.

 

[Sis]

Like they have "standardised" DVD acceptance? Why is pretty much all software still being released on bloody CD? Almost 10 years later.

l-b, I have not heard a more eloquently positioned reason why both Blu-ray and HD-DVD will fail miserably. Thanks!

.Sis

 

[mckmas8808]

See how many people buy either Dell or HP with AMD running Linux. I dont see it any other way then its wintels world, the resellers are just along for the ride.

J

I swear this board is losing IQ points by the day. So expletive both Intel and MS are going to take their number 1 product out of the top 2 Computer hardware makers in the world. Right. Does that even sound reasonalbe to you? Over a codec? Do you think MS and Intel would be willing to lose millions of dollars per week over a darn Blu-ray codec?

There is a difference between a "lab" and a "test line". The former is not for mass production. The latter is testing for mass production.

From what I gather from the excellent thread on AVSForum, BD SL, HD-DVD SL and HD-DVD DL are at the "test line" stage. The rumor is that an HD-DVD replicator has a HD-DVD 30/9 hybrid test line running for a while, but Toshiba has not provided a player for that.

There is no report/evidence of BD DL being out of the "lab" stage yet.

HD-DVD 30/9 hybrid spec is not yet official, but expected to be resolved before last SC meeting this year.

BD hybrid spec is not yet in BD spec.

AACS still has not had an official spec, but expected to be done this year.

Great point. But I have to ask. Wasn't Blu-ray suppose to come out after HD-DVD? Prehaps that's why the Blu-ray DL isn't complete yet. So tell me why should we assume that they will not have BD-DL completed at launch? I still don't understand why some people here want all products to be finished months before they are released. If that was the case wouldn't the product be coming out this Christmas?

How about actually waiting until they at least launch the PS3 or other Blu-ray players to clown and talk bad about what they didn't achieve. And you do know that AACS holds up the HD-DVD group too right?

 

[-tkf-]

I don't see how hybrid discs are any advantage to either the consumer or the HDDVD/BR camp.

So i buy a new movie with HD on one side and DVD on the other, cool, i get two formats for one formats price, so that WHEN i buy a HDDVD/BR player i can watch a HiDef edition.

Wouldn't the Hybrid cost way more to produce and buy?
And why sell something once that you can sell twice?
And as DVD shows us, prices drop fast when a movie isn't new and hot anymore, so if i really want the HiDef edition i should be able to buy it quite cheap anyway.

And about the cheap production of HDDVD, who honestly believes that the savings will be passed to the consumer? Those supporting the HDDVD camp because of cheaper production most own stocks in HDDVD companies

And HDDVD may be close to production, but afaik Sony has been producing BR equipment and XDCAM's for quite some time, i don't think we can ignore the knowhow that Sony must have gathered when it comes to high capcity optical discs.

 

[onanie]

There is a difference between a "lab" and a "test line". The former is not for mass production. The latter is testing for mass production.

From what I gather from the excellent thread on AVSForum, BD SL, HD-DVD SL and HD-DVD DL are at the "test line" stage

I see, I didn't know the chairmen of the BDA/HD-DVD groups post regularly at AVSForum.

 

[London Geezer]

l-b, I have not heard a more eloquently positioned reason why both Blu-ray and HD-DVD will fail miserably. Thanks!

.Sis

Thanks. I've always said that neither Bluray nor HDDVD will "win" anything.Especially on PCs!! DVD will reign supreme for a long long time. CD is still reigning supreme, with much more advanced formats available for years (SACD and DVDA).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I see, I didn't know the chairmen of the BDA/HD-DVD groups post regularly at AVSForum.

And no chief executives of any major console companies post on this forum either, so every piece of information here is worthless too (seeing as you only accept CEO's comments). In which case why hang around?

 

[Bjorn]

with much more advanced formats available for years (SACD and DVDA).

The DVDA/SACD are facing much bigger problems then HDDVD/BR though. Most people listen to mp3's these days which tells you a lot about how quality aware people are in this matter. I don't think the same can be said for HDTV.

 

[onanie]

And no chief executives of any major console companies post on this forum either, so every piece of information here is worthless too (seeing as you only accept CEO's comments). In which case why hang around?

Are you suggesting that every piece of information on this forum is just hearsay? Okay, maybe i'm in the wrong place.

I hope you understand. The reason I questioned the validity of the quote from AVSforum is that it is unlikely any common forumer will be privy to such knowledge as to which processes are at "test line" stage, and which are at "lab" stage (unless of course, they are CEO of the respective groups).

 

[avaya]

Well you forgot new-line cinemas for HD-DVD. And I wouldn't be so quick so say hardware backing gives BDA an advantage either with the Chinese backing HD-DVD. Anyway I was merely trying to make it clear that blu-ray doesn't have a significant advantage in terms of backers.

New Line cinema is a TimeWarner company. Just like MGM and Columbia Pictures are Sony Pictures companies.

 

[aaaaa00]

The reason I questioned the validity of the quote from AVSforum is that it is unlikely any common forumer will be privy to such knowledge as to which processes are at "test line" stage, and which are at "lab" stage (unless of course, they are CEO of the respective groups).

Actually there are quite a few insiders that post at AVSForum.

RDoherty (Richard Doherty) used to be Managing Director of Blu-ray and Professional A/V at Panasonic Hollywood Labs, until he switched sides and went to work for Microsoft.

amirm (Amir Majidimehr) is the Vice President of Windows Digital Media division, and he posts there often. (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx)

rickmarquardt (Rick Marquardt) posts there, and he probably has more optical disc manufacturing credentials and knowledge in his pinky than everyone on this board and AVS combined. He is one of the key people behind the CD and DVD formats and has been working in the industry for over two decades. He was Senior Vice President and General Manager of Warner Advanced Media Operations (WAMO) when they were developing DVD.

kjack (Keith Jack) is Director of Product Marketing at Sigma Designs, which builds embedded processors and DVD player platforms, and is building player solutions for both Blu Ray and HD DVD. (http://www.video-demystified.com/book1/book14.htm)

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I can name off the top of my head.

 

[onanie]

Actually there are quite a few insiders that post at AVSForum.

RDoherty (Richard Doherty) used to be Managing Director of Blu Ray at Panasonic Hollywood Labs, until he switched sides and went to work for Microsoft.

amirm (Amir Majidimehr) is the Vice President of Windows Digital Media division, and he posts there often. (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx)

rickmarquardt (Rick Marquardt) posts there, and he probably has more optical disc manufacturing credentials and knowledge in his pinky than everyone on this board and AVS combined. He is one of the key people behind the CD and DVD formats and has been working in the industry for over two decades. He was Senior Vice President and General Manager of Warner Advanced Media Operations (WAMO) when they were developing DVD.

kjack (Keith Jack) is Director of Product Marketing at Sigma Designs, which builds embedded processors and DVD player platforms, and is building player solutions for both Blu Ray and HD DVD. (http://www.video-demystified.com/book1/book14.htm)

Wow, it is surprising that there is such a cast at the forum. It would be interesting to know which of these prominent individuals made the specific comments in question, though I do not have time to check there.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's less surprising to hear there's industry insiders at AVSForum then it is to hear console insiders post at B3D. You don't have to be the CEO of a company to know what a company is doing or the state of various technologies.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Isn't Rick Marquardt (Senior Vice President/General Manager, Warner Advanced Media Operations) the one who owns a significant amount of patents conserning CD and DVD pressing thechinque.
No wonder he's so strongly behind HD-DVD, I wouldn't want to loose that money if I was him

 

[onanie]

It's less surprising to hear there's industry insiders at AVSForum then it is to hear console insiders post at B3D. You don't have to be the CEO of a company to know what a company is doing or the state of various technologies.

And i'm not specifically suggesting that you only trust information from CEOs of companies.

It is not hard to imagine though, the information that was quoted was not likely meant to be public information, and not likely to be deliberately leaked by individuals prominent enough to be in the know of such information (from the respective groups).

You do have to assess who divulges the information. To illustrate further, if I suggest that the PS3 is actually going to be $348.45 because I'm such an expert, you wouldn't believe me.