Microsoft announces external HD-DVD drive for Xbox 360

[scooby_dooby]

For MS this might be genius, for Sony sticking a 'half-decent' BD drive into PS3 is genius also.

Not really as Sony has still commited themselves to a huge risk, and if BR fails, they have done nothing but waste hundreds of millions of dollars.

MS's stretegiy involves no risk. As for costs, they are selling the HD-DVD add-on for PROFIT, so I fail to see your point.

This allows them to cost reduce teh core much quicker, without losing additional money on the hardware. Selling more core's will increase marketshare and start bringing in real money for MS. They don't make money off the consoles, they make it from licensing.

As smart as not rushing 6 months and having to invest all the cost of setitng up such a line? Their gamble of pushing to launch has arguably already failed but, and this is easy to say, with hindsight, would waiting and supporting HD have helped? Who knows.

already failed? 6 million consoles sold by the time PS launched? 8-10 by the time it hits US shores? That is not a failure my friend, it's a huge advantage.

Producing a new manufacturing line allows quicker cost reduction? It may allow more profit to be made on those few who do not want the movie facilities and those that do pay a premium, yes.

Huh? They need not set up a new line for the core version of the console, this can be agressively cost reduced. Any costs associated with the HD-DVD peripheral will be covered the price of the unit which they sell for a PROFIT.

But this isn't the crux of the entire issue. This is. Sony isn't just a computer company like MS, it is a media company; a film producer, a music giant etc. etc. etc. They will may far more profit in being on the licensing board for BR (every player remember is money to them, as it is for MS and HD DVD) yet they will make far more on every disk they themselves produce and ship. We all know how music industry pricing works and where the money ends up, the studios pockets, and guess who is the studio.

I'm not arguing that with greater risk != greater reward. Sony will make more money from BR tahn MS from HD-dvd, but they also take a much higher risk.

Agressive pricing on the core package is unlikely when you consider that this is, supposed to be, the machine that MS gets money back out of.

This is where your logic falls apart completely. To truly make MS money they need to gain marketshare, to gain marketshare they have to hit the $150-200 pricepoint ASAP. By not including HD-DVD they can do this much more quickly without taking big losses on the HS.

Sony has MS again though, here, even if core is agressively priced and, if they simply meet it.

Meet what? The core will probably be $150-200 cheaper than PS3 next holiday season, the majority of consumers next season will not care about HD-DVD, they will care about pricing and games.

This trend can continue every year with MS aggressivly pushing the pricepoint, while sony struggles to match it. We will probably see a $99 core 360 looooong before we see a $99 ps3.

 

[hongcho]

Blue ray have other advantages:

* It is very solid and it can resist to a screwdriver when the HD DVD is as fragile as DVD.

Well, without anti-scratch coating, it isn't. BD's initial spec required a caddy, which were later dropped for a hard coating. The one you mention is probably DUBAIS hard-coat, but that process is prohibitably expensive. It is expected that BD will go with a cheaper film-based coating, but this is not as scratch resistent as HD DVD or DVD.

* JVC has developped three-layer disc with both standard DVD layer and blue-ray layer. Of course it plays as a DVD when put in a DVD player, and as a BR disc when put in a BR player.

However it is not part of the BD spec. But before going triple layer, BD still has a long way to go for dual layer BD-ROM (for movies, not recordables). We probably won't see any DL BD-ROM titles until the late 2006 and that even won't be mass-produced.

As for BD-RE, it seems it will be available at the launch.

The more bitrate, the less artifacts and the more details. If you go to 1080p you can only want the better picture quality.

True. But as I've said before, the initial BD titles will be SL BD-ROM. That is 25GB. Also, most, if not all (at least all initial Sony titles), titles will be using MPEG-2, not H.264 or VC-1 at lower bitrate than DVHS (around 14 or 16 Mbps). See how that gives you the best quality. BD (actually Sony) is wasting the BD's capacity advantage with MPEG-2.

And why care about VC1 when there is H.264 ?

Consumers probably don't and don't need to. As for the title providers, mostly the tools and the performance since I heard that the tools for VC-1 is "faster" and mature than those for H.264.

But really, personally I think Sony is blowing it by not using H.264 (or VC-1) for its BD (initial) titles. There goes the capacity argument.

Hong.

 

[BTOA]

I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, but I'm still wondering.

How are Xbox 360 owner able to view HD-DVD content on their HDTV with this addon, because isn't a HDMI plug needed?

If so, does this unit come with a HDMI plug on it?

 

[Pugger]

BTOA, it would have to.

 

[hongcho]

I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, but I'm still wondering.

How are Xbox 360 owner able to view HD-DVD content on their HDTV with this addon, because isn't a HDMI plug needed?

If so, does this unit come with a HDMI plug on it?

Nobody knows at this point. They just announced an add-on, not its specs. My best guess would be a separate HDMI port on the add-on, but it's just a guess.

Hong.

 

[DemoCoder]

Well, that would effectively mean that the external drive has to have its own video chip+TMDS transmitter+HDCP, because the XB360 has no digital-out for the framebuffer (its hardwired to analog).

The most obviously choice would be to decode the HD-DVD on the XB360, then use the CPU to copy the finished frame to an external chip on the external drive which then outputs HDMI.

Of course, this makes for a more expensive solution than just buying an HD-DVD player. I think I'll pass. I think HD-DVD is dead anyway, and I don't think I'll waste money buying any HD-DVD discs, maybe rent them from Netflix if a cheap HD-DVD player comes out.

 

[expletive]

I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, but I'm still wondering.

How are Xbox 360 owner able to view HD-DVD content on their HDTV with this addon, because isn't a HDMI plug needed?

If so, does this unit come with a HDMI plug on it?

Judging frmo the specs of the stand alone units it will need HDMI. Whether or not the HDMI plug will be on the palyer or the 360 could always supply HDMI via a cable is yet to be seen.

 

[Guden Oden]

Well the genius lies in the fact that they managed to avoid the costs associated with a next-gen optical drive, while still supporting the next gen media format

Except they're not supporting it. Sony is supporting it by having a HD drive built-in. MS requires (a likely fairly expensive) upgrade.

It's very smart actually.

I still fail to see the smart in it. It's still kludgy, has the potential to look ugly and take up lots of space, it will make the entire setup considerably more expensive, and being an add-on guarantees only a minority will ever even consider buying it, much less actually do it. Not to mention HDDVD having received a few knocks and bruises recently, making its future viability a bit of a question really. Even if it survives in the long run, it looks as if to be a "me too" lesser version of blu-ray.

So it's essentially win-win, and allows them to cost reduce much faster than Sony.

Not really sure where you get the idea that HD optical drives are some kind of rocket science, a setup where two drives are required will surely be (possibly a lot) more expensive than a system with just one. MS isn't actually cost-reducing, they're just dumping costs on their users instead.

Now, if they capatilize on this, and use extremely agressive pricing on their core package, this could pay off big time.

Like they're pricing their memory cards extremely aggressively? Controllers? Video cables? Battery packs? The list goes on and on and on. What you're doing is engaging in rose-colored glasses-speculation.

 

[Magnum PI]

Well, without anti-scratch coating, it isn't. BD's initial spec required a caddy, which were later dropped for a hard coating. The one you mention is probably DUBAIS hard-coat,

Durabis

but that process is prohibitably expensive.

It is expected that BD will go with a cheaper film-based coating, but this is not as scratch resistent as HD DVD or DVD.

everything i read suggests that durabis will be used on BR discs.

As for the title providers, mostly the tools and the performance since I heard that the tools for VC-1 is "faster" and mature than those for H.264.

That's not the "speed" that matters, what matters is the picture quality you get.

Anyway that not what's doom9 shoutout shows: http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/codecs-main-105-1.htm

They eliminated VC-1 because the tools weren't reliable, it's not surprising as they were beta..

In the final round of the codec comparison you can see the winner is the opensource H.264 code, x264.

But really, personally I think Sony is blowing it by not using H.264 (or VC-1) for its BD (initial) titles. There goes the capacity argument.

Yes that seems so stupid, where did you get that info ?

 

[BTOA]

Judging frmo the specs of the stand alone units it will need HDMI. Whether or not the HDMI plug will be on the palyer or the 360 could always supply HDMI via a cable is yet to be seen.

I have been heard that some mod sites have looked into the Xbox 360 and have stated it does not have a digital output chip, and that getting a digital out signal would require a revision of the hardware. Mind you guys that I heard this from a friend, so I have no source for these claims atm.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Except they're not supporting it. Sony is supporting it by having a HD drive built-in. MS requires (a likely fairly expensive) upgrade.


I still fail to see the smart in it. It's still kludgy, has the potential to look ugly and take up lots of space, it will make the entire setup considerably more expensive, and being an add-on guarantees only a minority will ever even consider buying it, much less actually do it. Not to mention HDDVD having received a few knocks and bruises recently, making its future viability a bit of a question really. Even if it survives in the long run, it looks as if to be a "me too" lesser version of blu-ray.


Not really sure where you get the idea that HD optical drives are some kind of rocket science, a setup where two drives are required will surely be (possibly a lot) more expensive than a system with just one. MS isn't actually cost-reducing, they're just dumping costs on their users instead.


Like they're pricing their memory cards extremely aggressively? Controllers? Video cables? Battery packs? The list goes on and on and on. What you're doing is engaging in rose-colored glasses-speculation.

When did I say they were pricing their perihpherals aggresively? Did you miss my post where I speculated the price would be $200+ for the add-on because of MS's ridiculously high peripheral pricing? If you are going to try and 'label' my posts, at least read them ALL. Nowhere am I using rose-coloured glasses, I full y expect their peripherals to remain expensive, but I also fully expect them to battle Sony HARD for market position, and to take advantage of the price difference to really gain marketshare. This means sub $200 core as soon as possible.

They ARE cost reducing, they are cost reducing the CORE GAME MACHINE. it's smart because they can get this CORE GAME MACHINE into more homes, more quickly, due to the lower price.

At the same time, they fulfill the need of HD-DVD enthusiast who make up a fraction of the console buying audience. This also happens to be the same early-adopter demographic, so they are pacifying these tech-heads, while being able to create a low priced core unit for the bread and butter demographic...the casual gamer.

Basically, they are timing it right, HD-DVD is not a big selling point, and it won;'t be for the next few years. So while Sony is busy losing money of their optical format, while consumers are largely indifferent and notice mainly the higher price tag, MS can concentrate on dropping the base price of their unit. Sony can't do this, cause teh CORE MODEL of their game-system always includes the expensive BR drive.

When HD playback finally DOES become a major selling feature to the majority if people, MS can simply build an integrated unit, and they can do so without pissing anyone off, since the add-on has always been available.

It's is very smart, I don't know how you can't see that. Put the forum politics and rhetoric aside, and take a look at the consumer. This is a big plus for the consumer, and MS really has all bases covered.

 

[Magnum PI]

Why should a BR player be more expensive than a an HD DVD player ?

There are both using blue-violet laser, and supporting the same codecs.

BR needs java support, but you can have java in small cellphones.

I don't see why BR couldn't be sold about the same price as HD DVD.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The Optical Processing Unit for BR is a totally new piece of hardware, the OPU for hd-dvd is just an adapted DVD opu, that's as much as I can tell. The BR opu is rumoured around $400 while the HD-DVD ~$100, but those are based on forum postings...

Damn.. I wish someone could get us hard #'s on the price of these OPU's.

 

[Ginko]

When did I say they were pricing their perihpherals aggresively? Did you miss my post where I speculated the price would be $200+ for the add-on because of MS's ridiculously high peripheral pricing? If you are going to try and pra-phrase my posts, at least read them ALL.

They ARE cost reducing, they are cost reducing the CORE GAME MACHINE. it's smart because they can get this CORE GAME MACHINE into more homes, more quickly, due to the lower price.

At the same time, they fulfill the need of HD-DVD enthusiast who make up a fraction of the console buying audience.

Basically, they are timing it right, HD-DVD is not a big selling point, and it won;'t be for the next few years. So while Sony is busy losing money of their optical format, while consumers are largely indifferent and notice mainly the higher price tag, MS can concentrate on dropping the base price of their unit. Sony can't do this, cause teh CORE MODEL of their game-system always includes the expensive BR drive.

When HD playback finally DOES become a major selling feature to the majority if people, MS can simply build an integrated unit, and they can do so without pissing anyone off, since the add-on has always been available.

It's is very smart, I don't know how you can't see that. Put the forum politics and rhetoric aside, and take a look at the consumer. This is a big plus for the consumer, and MS really has all bases covered.

Moore says you won't see an integrated HD-DVD player...

"Microsoft hasn't announced a price point for the HD-DVD drive or possible system bundles, but Moore made it clear that Microsoft will not create a new Xbox 360 with a built-in HD-DVD drive. "If you actually built a HD-DVD new Xbox 360, that fragments [the installation base] even further. So the idea of having an external peripheral is far better to keep the user base consistent rather than build yet another Xbox 360 that has HD-DVD built in--that means millions of people won't have that."

Link

I agree Scoob, it's all about options and customization. That's been MS's philosophy from the beginning, what with the Core and Premium systems. Buy what you need to do what you want.

 

[blakjedi]

this is why Warren Buffet never invest in this company, it management make stupid decision again and again. This is just an example of it.

Dantruon - this a just plain dumb statement you know... First Buffet and Gates are best friends. Second Buffet said he doesnt invest in tech companies because he doesnt really get their mechanics. Second Gates can be and usually is between 5 and 10 billion dollars richer than Buffet so.... who is really stupid?

 

[Carl B]

Thanks for that post/link Ginko - one more point for XBD in the speculation race!
(I thought the internal solution Joe and crew had crafted made sense though)

@Hongcho: I don't think the VC-1 vs MPEG-2 thing is too big of a deal in this case. The added storage is exactly what will make MPEG-2 viable quality-wise compared to the other two, and I heard somewhere that Sony has digital copies of their films already in 1080p/MPEG-2, making it less expensive for them to pursue that option.

I mean I forget where I read that mind you (it was probably here in some thread), but I do recall that being a case as to why they weren't feeling a great need to move away from MPEG-2 at the moment.

 

[scooby_dooby]

x360 hd-dvd drive v. 2.0

 

[Ginko]

x360 hd-dvd drive v. 2.0

I will be damn impressed if the final product looks anything like that.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You need to give the hddvd the xbox360 shape/styling so it will look like a mini xbox360.

 

[scooby_dooby]

x360 hd-dvd drive v. 2.1