Merrick: Revolution Specs probably will never be released

Except that the engineers that designed flipper worked together under a specific design philosophy that wasn't ATI's. When ATI bought ArtX they split up the engineers into their different dev teams to work on new projects.

Ultimately though they were working under Nintendo's design philosophy like they are now. BTW as far as I know ATI didn't split those engineers up. Pretty much all of ArtX's engineers went into ATI's West Coast team which went on to design R3xx, R4xx and R5xx. ATI East Coast (R1xx and R2xx) designed Xenos so it makes sense that the West Coast team are designing Hollywood. Also just FYI Dave Orton of ArtX became CEO of ATI (just thought I'd throw that in with all the other ATI/ArtX info :)).
 
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Just to say that releasing spec actually may be misleading (probably not in this case but) I mean imagine they released the console with a single PPE at 3,4Ghz and a X1300 at 600Mhz many would make a more informed choise thinking that the REV is more powerfull which is not. so listing the spec unless they list everything is not cleary a good thing and listing everything is a wast of time, so after all the best someone can do (for the general consumer) is say it is less/more /equal powerfull than...which they did. So realising the spec or not would be the same from their (and general consumer) point of view/bussines.
 
BTW does anyone know how much heat GameCube's Flipper and Gekko give off (and how much total for all of GameCube's components)? Slightly off topic I know but at least its Nintendo related and I just want to know :)
 
Shifty Geezer said:
I've been explaining Nintendo's actions. I've no interest in getting a Revolution myself, and I've never said I have in all the time I've been on this forum. It IS possible to agree with something without being a raving six-star :oops: :D

Well, I do remember you making ridiculous comments such as "gaming is getting boring and far too complicated for me", comments that were almost unheard of in gaming forums before Nintendo´s PR/BS campaign. If it wasn´t you, I apologize.

Your talking basic componentry and features, not tech specs. Of course Revolution will come with a feature list of IO options, DVD playback, revolutionary controller. But not...
but you don't ask for this information on your DVD player or TV. You have specs like IO, connections, and trademark names like 'Photonominal Filtering' and 'Whizzmatronic Picture Enhancement' as features, but not processor speeds or memory amounts. A TV might advertise a quality feature but it doesn't say the tech specs of what's driving the technology. If you walk into a store and see two TVs from the same manufacturer, and one has 'ClearView Technology' and one hasn't, that goes to helping you make an informed decision. But you never see 'TV with 500 MHz image processor' as that information is irrelevant to the experience.

It´s relevant depending on the context. You don´t see those kinds of specs on a DVD player because requirements do not vary, differences between DVD players are not big enough to justify such a move. It´s more usefull to say what makes your DVD player unique rather than mentioning specs.

On the other hand a console has different performance capabilities when compared to their competition, so such information should be available. It´s a ground for comparison, somewhat flawed as it may be, but it is an information that can be usefull to a consumer. It´s also a part of the console´s nature, it´s not merely a DVD player with minimum technical requirements, it´s an important technological evolution over the last generation, so specs are relevant in this market regardless of Nintendo´s claims.

Nowhere can I read PS2 has a 300 MHz CPU, 150 MHz GPU. Neither can I read XB has 700 MHz processor, nor the structural differences of those components that explain the worth of the clock speeds (because as we all know clock speeds alone are worthless and anyone choosing on clock speeds is...a moron, to be blunt!). Ah...I have just found one site. GAME (owned by Electronics Boutique I think). They don't list the GPU clockspeed for XBox though. And no vertex and pixel pipes figures for any system. I guess they're violating consumer rights, no? ;)

The specs are easily available on the official site AFAIK, and can be obtained easily regardless from gaming publications. Whichever way a store decides to market the product is irrelevant.

Now I appreciate some people want that information when choosing consoles, because they want the fastest machine. But those people wouldn't buy Revolution anyway because we all know it's not the fastest and that's why Nintendo aren't bothering to release the technical specifications (CPU and GPU speeds etc.).

For everyone else, the substantial majority, just as they don't care what components go into their other CE goods, they don't care what the specs of Revolution's internal workings are. They'll buy on the appeal of demos in store in the first instance, and recommendations in the second. There's no need nor requirement amongst the general public for detailed information on internal workings, and Nintendo are not doing any wrong to the mainstream general non-geek public by not releasing this info.

That´s fine and dandy, still the company should give the customers a choice, do not withhold information from them if they do wish to know it. I suppose your arguement boils down to "if you don´t absolutely NEED to know it, then you will NOT know it, regardless of what you want" and assuring that´s fine.

Well, I disagree with that stance and I feel nobody should follow it.
 
Meh. Specs are meaningless. When I look at the specs for the PS2 and compare them to the Gamecube, the PS2 appears to be more powerful, but when I play Metroid Prime 2:Echoes (2004 GCN) and compare it to Soul Calibur 3 (2005 PS2), I know that the Gamecube is a better engineered console.
 
Readykilowatt said:
Meh. Specs are meaningless. When I look at the specs for the PS2 and compare them to the Gamecube, the PS2 appears to be more powerful, but when I play Metroid Prime 2:Echoes (2004 GCN) and compare it to Soul Calibur 3 (2005 PS2), I know that the Gamecube is a better engineered console.

Shouldn't you at least compare SC2 PS2 to the GC version?

When people see games like Jak2/3 and many others, and compare them to games like RE4 on GC, they feel each console has its strengths, and they wonder what Nintendo were doing in those 18 months it took them to release the GC, because they think that there should be a much bigger difference between the two, given the time of release.
 
Teasy said:
BTW does anyone know how much heat GameCube's Flipper and Gekko give off (and how much total for all of GameCube's components)? Slightly off topic I know but at least its Nintendo related and I just want to know :)

Anandtech said:
The Gekko is actually a very cool running CPU, dissipating around 5W at its 485MHz operating frequency.

Anandtech said:
Where the GameCube does clearly come out on top however is in heat production and die size. The Gekko produces around 1/3 the amount of heat as the Xbox CPU and measures in at close to half of the die size.

For reference, the average temperatures for the xBox CPU are between 40º-65ºC and for the motherboard between 33º-49ºC according to some.

Dunno if that helps.
 
Almasy said:
That´s fine and dandy, still the company should give the customers a choice, do not withhold information from them if they do wish to know it.

Unless it would hurt the company to give out that information. If you write to a sausage manufacturer and ask for a detailed breakdown of what part of the pig/cow/packing plant worker's severed hand the various bits in your sausage came from, they won't tell you. They `don't need you freaking out when you find out there are ground up eyeballs in that tasty kielbasa. They want as many people to keep eating those sausages as possible. The people who worry a lot about what's in their food are already not buying them, so they don't need to lose more customers.

Ask yourself: How would it benefit Nintendo to give the specific numbers on Revolution? You already know the numbers are lower; they've already said so. So you already know that if what you want is the most powerful machine, you're out of luck with them. How does it benefit them to tell you just how much lower those numbers are? How will that do anything but generate negative press they don't need? Will they sell more or fewer consoles if they publicly say "Oh, we've got 1/3 as many hardware threads as X360, our GPU only runs at 400 MHz, and it's only got 8 pixel pipelines and 4 vertex shaders?" They've already got a difficult PR situation trying to convince people that being able to say TFLOP isn't as important as games. They've already lost people like you. They don't need to lose the marginal cases that will change their minds when they hear "Only 1/5 as powerful as Xbox 360, look, it's only 200 MFLOP!" Heck, just saying "12-15m polygons in-game" for Cube generated a significant amount of negative buzz, as most people assumed they were overshooting their specs as much as Sony was.

You know it's not as powerful. You know they're not currently shooting for HD. What else do you need to know? If you're preordering based on power alone, you know not to buy the Revolution.
 
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If you write to a sausage manufacturer and ask for a detailed breakdown of what part of the pig/cow/packing plant worker's severed hand the various bits in your sausage came from, they won't tell you. They `don't need you freaking out when you find out there are ground up eyeballs in that tasty kielbasa. They want as many people to keep eating those sausages as possible. The people who worry a lot about what's in their food are already not buying them, so they don't need to lose more customers.
ingredients lists are a good analogy. how many people know what half of the ingredients are in pre-packaged foods. even ones that sound "safe", like mechanicly seperated chicken, or partially defatted cooked pork fatty tissue.

there's a decent portion of the gaming population that still believe that the xbox and ps2 are cutting edge technology. but if you ask them what's in them to make them cutting edge they have no idea. they just know they've seen pretty images on a tv screen while playing them.

overhyping your specs, even if you're not outright lying, can be dangerous. look at what happened to nVidia with the geforce FX. yes, the 5800 could technicaly be considered an 8 pipeline card, and yes, it could technicaly run pixel shaders beyond the ps2.0 specification, and yes it was manufactured using cutting edge fab technology and ran at clock speeds much faster than the competition. but it all adds up to the card underperforming in real life situations.
 
What is the point in arguing/debating this? These statements run in direct contradicton to what Miyamoto said. Regarding after the hw was finialized & they saw how things were "up & running" (real-time gaming scenarios) would he reveal the specs to the consumer. Anyone can "crunch numbers" (theoretical ones) on a calculator, but this is "misleading." Why are all of you so concerned anyways? The numbers will leak via benchmarks, developer quotes, etc. B3D will get its pound of flesh, rest assured. Probably even before the system lauches. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I do see the logic behind it. No one wants to see a repeat of the DC debacle. A console crushed by the mere promises of vastly exaggerated power.

I will wait on E3, to actually see how the games look & control firsthand. Everyone is overlooking the fact that on a standard or p-scan TV Nintendo has stated that "You won't be able to tell the difference." This speaks much more to me than not revealing specs publicly, which we all know will come. Especially here.
 
Li Mu Bai said:
I will wait on E3, to actually see how the games look & control firsthand. Everyone is overlooking the fact that on a standard or p-scan TV Nintendo has stated that "You won't be able to tell the difference." This speaks much more to me than not revealing specs publicly, which we all know will come. Especially here.

That's another pretty good point. They don't need to put out numbers that sound vastly inferior ("Why should I pay $200 for a Dreamcast that puts out 2m polys per second when I can pay $300 for a PS2 that puts out 66m polys per second?). They need to keep reiterating "Our numbers may be as big, but on your average TV, our graphics will look nearly indistinguishable." Now they do need make good on that promise, but it does keep them from getting absolutely spanked by MS and Sony TFLOP hype. "Oh sure, our games will look as good as Gears of War and Ghost Recon 2, just in 480p instead of 720p." No matter how big Sony's numbers get or how many bar graphs MS puts out, they can just keep saying that same thing (and hurrying back to the lab to tweak the design a bit more ;)).

One advantage Nintendo has is that they know what kind of images their console has to be able to output, because MS has already demonstrated so much of what XGPU Strikes Back can do. If they can get there with lower specs than you'd think you need, so much the better for them.
 
fearsomepirate said:
They need to keep reiterating "Our numbers may be as big, but on your average TV, our graphics will look nearly indistinguishable." Now they do need make good on that promise, but it does keep them from getting absolutely spanked by MS and Sony TFLOP hype.

I completely agree. Because most of the world, including NA, will not have HDTVs by this time. Though Nintendo's claims must be true, the average mainstream consumer will not care about resolutions their TVs cannot reproduce, & the controller interface is set to be a huge Revolution selling point given the pre-requisite software, & there are always the various shells. Avoiding a hypothetical stat fight, no matter how capable Broadway & Hollywood are, is an intelligent move at this point. The public's power perception, even if you are no techie, can be fatal. Let the Revolution's game's visuals, art assets, animation, etc. speak for themselves.
 
fearsomepirate said:
Unless it would hurt the company to give out that information. If you write to a sausage manufacturer and ask for a detailed breakdown of what part of the pig/cow/packing plant worker's severed hand the various bits in your sausage came from, they won't tell you. They `don't need you freaking out when you find out there are ground up eyeballs in that tasty kielbasa. They want as many people to keep eating those sausages as possible. The people who worry a lot about what's in their food are already not buying them, so they don't need to lose more customers.

That´s just a tad exagerated don´t you think? I believe basic information such as clock frequencies and Pixel and vertex pipes should be available for everyone, but heh, what do I know?
 
Li Mu Bai said:
I completely agree. Because most of the world, including NA, will not have HDTVs by this time. Though Nintendo's claims must be true, the average mainstream consumer will not care about resolutions their TVs cannot reproduce

Well actually most people in the US in 2008 will have HDTVs.
 
Nintendo: "Baby, it's not the size of the boat...it's the motion of the ocean. But just to be safe, I'll keep my pants on and we can just dry hump."
 
Almasy said:
That´s just a tad exagerated don´t you think? I believe basic information such as clock frequencies and Pixel and vertex pipes should be available for everyone, but heh, what do I know?
But that information is misleading. Like when people popped into a PC store and saw 350 MHz AMD processor PCs next to 400 MHz Intel processor PCs and thus decided the Intel was better. Would a comparison of the number of shader pipes between PS3 and XB360 really give an indication of relative performance? Xenos works very differently so direct number comparisons are useless. Without know the WHOLE architecture you can't compare. A few paper specs will just be misleading. PS3 has 2x the System bandwidth than XB360. Hence PS3 is 2x better!

Hell, we've been discussing for months the advantages and disadvantages of different architectures at different clock speeds, and no-one here can agree on how these systems compare. Partial information is often more damaging than no information, and it's better people don't know anything at all than a few specs they don't understand but can compare based on relationships with numbers rather than relationships with system architectures.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
But that information is misleading. Like when people popped into a PC store and saw 350 MHz AMD processor PCs next to 400 MHz Intel processor PCs and thus decided the Intel was better. Would a comparison of the number of shader pipes between PS3 and XB360 really give an indication of relative performance? Xenos works very differently so direct number comparisons are useless. Without know the WHOLE architecture you can't compare. A few paper specs will just be misleading. PS3 has 2x the System bandwidth than XB360. Hence PS3 is 2x better!

Hell, we've been discussing for months the advantages and disadvantages of different architectures at different clock speeds, and no-one here can agree on how these systems compare. Partial information is often more damaging than no information, and it's better people don't know anything at all than a few specs they don't understand but can compare based on relationships with numbers rather than relationships with system architectures.


no-no-no-no, Shifty, you got that completely wrong - you disregard basic information. now let's get back to the dry humping.
 
Nintendo: "Baby, it's not the size of the boat...it's the motion of the ocean. But just to be safe, I'll keep my pants on and we can just dry hump."

Bad analogy, its more like:

Nintendo: "I'm not going to tell you my cock measurements, they're not important, now lets get down to business and I'll show you what is important ;)"
 
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Teasy said:
Ultimately though they were working under Nintendo's design philosophy like they are now. BTW as far as I know ATI didn't split those engineers up. Pretty much all of ArtX's engineers went into ATI's West Coast team which went on to design R3xx, R4xx and R5xx. ATI East Coast (R1xx and R2xx) designed Xenos so it makes sense that the West Coast team are designing Hollywood. Also just FYI Dave Orton of ArtX became CEO of ATI (just thought I'd throw that in with all the other ATI/ArtX info :)).

They split the engineers up about equally into both teams. I doubt Nintendo had much to do with Flippers design beyond giving them a price/performance estimate.

I will add that ATI aquiring the ArtX IP has very likely benefited their ability to make streamlined custom designed architectures such as the 360 and probably the Revolution.
 
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Alpha_Spartan said:
Nintendo: "Baby, it's not the size of the boat...it's the motion of the ocean. But just to be safe, I'll keep my pants on and we can just dry hump."

roflmao!!!

can i use it as a sig???
 
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