Almasy said:
I think a lot of people are upset mainly because many of Carmack´s comments and complaints are not based on firm foundations.
Says who, you? A developer working with the system is much more in the know than us--lay fans. EVERY developer has noted the issues of multi-core processing--even the devs in this thread. Some welcome the challenge, others think it was unnecessary at this time. So we have fact (difficulties surrounding multi-core designs) with opinion (whether now was, or was not, a good time for consoles to make that transistion). His facts (comments) are correct; his opinion (complaints) is his perception based on years of PC & Console development.
Look at his comment regarding the CPUs, he´s using existing code to measure these new type of processors. That´s not the most inteligent thing one can do, and it only makes you look dumb and lazy in the public eye, and IMO he deserves it.
Again, I think YOU are reading too much into what he is saying AND being too defensive. Obviously he did not just drop the Q4 code right onto Xenon and expect it to work.
As an aside, Q4 is still in development. It was noted it was running at half the speed of a desktop. Compared to the hit many games took going from the Alpha to Beta kits on the 360 or the fact some PS3 games were running at about 5% of their final framerate, 50% sounds pretty good for a game in development that just recieved final Beta kits in the last couple months (and, as Todd noted, they are STILL replacing chips and stuff with final spec parts). Obviously he is not as dumb as you are portrarying him or lazy. But as I noted before there has been a lot of sentiment that the consoles are going to "cream" the PC. Yet
Hannibal has had reservations
Devs who spoke to Anand had reservations
John has reservations
They are not saying the consoles suck, just that they are more labor intensive platforms that take MORE TIME to get the same power out of them compared to a PC. They have more theoretical Floating Point performance, but as we all know (or should!) is that FP is not the end-all be-all in game development. It is important, and developers who design specifically around the STRENGTHS of a single platform will be greatly rewarded. Most 3rd party-cross platform companies, especially those who branch out to the PC, do not have that luxery. They need to be cross platform to make a profit, which means many of the special features and performance bonuses are not available without re-writing large portions of the game.
This is why devs have been SCREAMING for the last year about the rising development costs. There is not only the art assets and juggling more game code, but to get competitive looking games with 1st party titles they need to invest significantly ontop of what they have already done.
Dumb.
Lazy.
Those are not the words I would use in this situation. Looking at an additional 6 months to port a game to the PC on what he calls a "friendly" environment does not bode well for many smaller dev houses (and, IMO, smaller dev houses tend to turn up the gems... only to be bought out by EA!
)
His comments also lack moral authority because id´s presence on the console market is close to nill.
False.
The Quake 3 engine was very popular during the last gen (Call of Duty, Return to Castle Wolfenstien, Medal of Honor, 007:tWinE, SoF2, Jedi Knight 1&2, etc). Further id IPs like Doom and Quake have appeared on many consoles.
So id games and their engine have indeed been significant on the consoles, present and times past.
To put it another way: id may not be Nintendo, Sony, or MS, but when it comes to devs id has more experience than most companies. You would be very hard pressed to name 10 non-1st party developers other than John who have had more influence on the industry. Further, we respect the opinions of devs on this boards with far less experience/sucess in the industry.
Also, Acert, I´m sure you´re fond of Carmack and all, but Doom 3 didn´t set the console world on fire. It sold nicely, but it´s not indicative of much, and certainly doesn´t give him any authority to speak ill of consoles.
1. Who said I am fond of John? I already stated I do not like the Doom series. Out of the Quake series only #2 I found interesting (never finished it though). And I do not always agree with him. BUT, unlike you it seems, I understand what he has done for the industry and the sway he has in the industry. He also tends to have an opinion (not one I always agree with) and tends to speak his mind. As others noted he is a very smart person and it is worth at least
considering what he is saying.
If one calls trying to understand John's perspective and his actual WORDS (not paraphrased talking points) and has a respect for his intelligence and experience in the field (while not always agreeing with him), then yes, I am fond of him. But then again I would be considered fond of many industry figures.
2. Doom 3 has done nicely on the Xbox, and the fact his Quake 3 engine has been widely used is worth noting. You are overstating the position of what he has, and has not done, with the consoles.
3. As for his authority to speak ill of the consoles I disagree. He is a RESPECTED developer who has sold more games than you can bat an eye at. I fart in the general direction of any arguement that would state JOHN can not be critical of a console yet people on THIS FORUM can. You yourself have been critical of consoles on this very forum--so why should not an EXPERIENCED programmer who has produced dozens of games and a number of cutting edge realtime game rendering engines be able to speak his peace?
Really, to argue that he has no aurhority to say what he has yet to engage in the same haggling on this forum is a riot. He has worked on home consoles in the past and is working with the consoles right now. Heck, you telling him he has no authority to talk about the consoles is like the pot calling the kettle black.
The difference is he is a created a game and actually worked on the next gen consoles. Feel free to disagree with him, but criticizing a professional because he disagrees with your lay-person perspective/bias is wrong.
Surely you would not tell ERP or DeanoC they have no room to discuss a platform they have worked on. We take their comments on the Xbox, PS2, GCN all the time. And we all respect what they say. Yet no disprespect to either of these two fine gents (who, btw, are VERY honest, knowledgable, and speak their minds... really GREAT devs both of them), but my guess is John has worked on as many, if not more, platforms and his games have sold a lot more (safe bet... his games have sold more than almost anyone else not named Mario or Sim). That does not make John more qualified to talk on next gen consoles, but since he is working on them he has equal authority to ERP and DeanoC (guys we all love and appreciate).
Really... no authority? Hahaha
Honestly, if he doesn´t even bother to optimize for consoles, all he is doing is spreading FUD, and as a console gamer I do not appreciatte that.
Obviously he had to optimize some of his code to get it to even run on the 360.
The only FUD I see here is your appearant anger with his comments. As has been noted by other devs, the SUBSTANCE of his keynotes is very real. There are challenges ahead. He has opinions on the design decisions which some devs disagree with (I disagree with him as well! Multicore needed to happen on the PC 2 years ago, if not sooner than that).
I believe in general you are taking what he has stated out of context and downplaying what he has said.
Fact is OTHER devs DO agree with him. This is NOT the first time we have heard devs complain about Multi-Core CPUs. Or no OoO execution. Or cache sizes. Or system development tools.
This is nothing new. The difference is 1.) John has MUCH more pull when he says something and 2.) John collected a coherent complaint at an "important" event.
IMO he´s a guy that got used to big fat CPUs that do a lot of work for him. That´s fine as long as he stays in the PC market.
It is a good thing your opinion of John is irrelevant.
Fact is id is coming to the next gen consoles--and the home consoles is an area id has ben active and present in since the says of the SNES.
As for the CPU comment, he got Doom 3 to run on a Celeron 733MHz with 64MB of memory and a GF3-class GPU. Seeing as D3 is one of the best looking 360 games I think your comment about CPUs must be a slam against the 95% of other devs who were unable to make as nice looking games this gen.
