JC Keynote talks consoles

[Laa-Yosh]

If he really means to convey that "the systems are great", he should have started out saying that and not devoted the majority of his speech to what he believes to be thier weaknesses.

Have you read the transcript? IIRC that's exactly how he's done it, first telling people how much he likes the way hardware is advancing, then voicing his concerns, then re-stating that he's still happy with the hardware...

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Nite_Hawk,

you're extracting from a technical matter, and then turning things into a political one and then interpretting things all funky.

I'm simply saying that JC has his biases like everyone else.

Carmack seemed fine in his tone and approach. The criticisms leveled against his "comments" were either against poor interpretations of what he said or just poor, for the most part.

So anyone who interprets his opinions differently than you is interpreting it poorly? It's entirely possible the JC really loves both the Xenon and the Cell processors, and that he really is just nitpicking a couple of "quibbles" as he put it. Contrast this keynote with his introduction of the GF3 though. He certainly knows how to promote a product when he sees fit. If this is such a hang up though, I'll drop it.
[/quote]

I'm not a 100% with him on everything either, but it has gotten silly that there is this pathetic effort to attack the guy on a personal level it's not adding anything. When the argument starts bringing up his history and so on, it's off topic and entirely non-technical. It's, "look at me I can piss on the him and not address what he's really saying." This is exactly what happened, arguments started buckling and people dug up his, "track record".

No offense to you, you're an excellent poster, but in this particular vein not so much.

A pathetic effort to attack him on a personal level? Because I said he's getting older and that relearning how to do things after being the top in his field for the last 20 years is going to be really difficult for him? Did you read the part where I said I think he's a great programmer? Is it so bad to say that there are other people who have more experience and knowledge about parellel computing than he does out there, and that thier opinions are more relevent to this topic? I wouldn't trust JC over someone who has worked in data mining for years on that particular subject either. That's not an attack unless you think John is such an expert on this matter that he shouldn't be questioned.

Look, this discussion has gotten way out of hand. Apparently a lot of people feel really strongly about this, and I'm getting tired of arguing it since there is basically nothing new to say. Let me conclude this by saying that I do *not* want my posts taken as some kind of attack on John, or even saying that he's incapable of making comments or observations about Cell/Xenon. Everyone is saying his opinion is a "wake up call" and props it up as "truth" against industry "hype". It's just his opinion like everyone elses opinion. He makes some good points and points I disagree with. Still, his opinion is just one of many that are worth listening to. There are many other qualified people out there that are *excited* about Cell and Xenon, and not simply because they are working for Sony or IBM.

Nite_Hawk

 

[swaaye]

John's opinions and Valve's opinions have been the most interesting (and feel the most down-to-earth) opinions said so far.

I don't really trust the developers who are developing first-gen games. And you can not trust the hardware engineers as they sure as hell aren't going to rip on their hardware or they'll probably be receiving a severance package. Those two groups have too much at stake. For example, I don't think Bethesda has said a single negative thing about the platform in any interview. No platform is free of pitfalls.

id and Valve do not have this vested interest yet. Valve told us about NV30, very truthfully. And John has never shown a bias historically from what I can recall. He's torn every company out there apart at one time or another. He always seems to give you his opinion straight with no smoothed over bullshit to wade thru.

I have a whole bunch of '95 and '96 (PSX, N64, and Saturn launches) Next Generation mags that I've been rereading over the last few months. If there's one thing that's still true it's that developers working on the games for unreleased consoles do not rip on the hardware. Well, that's not entirely true. Saturn did get ripped on by one in-house, famous Sega developer (Yu Suzuki I believe) But he came back a month later and "rephrased" his stance. LOL.

 

[DeanoC]

If there's one thing that's still true it's that developers working on the games for unreleased consoles do not rip on the hardware.

Absolutely, I'm obviously NOT going to rip on Sony, given ultimately they pay my wages. I won't lie but I can opt not to say something if I know it my piss my pay masters off.

Thats why I like JC, I don't agree with his assessments in all cases but he is one of the rare unbiased people in the business.

Listen to him first then listen to the rest of us ;-)

 

[AlNom]

Listen to him first then listen to the rest of us ;-)

I can opt not to say something if I know it my piss my pay masters off.

But I only hear dust and echoes now....


.......ahh......

 

[Acert93]

I'm simply saying that JC has his biases like everyone else.

Correct.

The difference is he has first hand knowledge of the 360/PS3 and has a history of working with multi-core and console systems. Not to mention he is well respected by his programming/dev peers.

On the other hand, those here calling him "lazy" "dumb" and so forth have no experience in the above. The fact Gabe Newell, the devs who talked to Anand, the processor rundown at Arsetechnica, and the comments by Shoot and ERP here (e.g. ERP thought his comments were fair) have voiced similar opinions on some of the issues John brings up indicates his opinion is much more valid than say... your average B3D poster.

Also, you guys are really not quoting him. He has plenty of positives to say, yet it is your bias that keeps being drawn back to the negatives.

So anyone who interprets his opinions differently than you is interpreting it poorly? It's entirely possible the JC really loves both the Xenon and the Cell processors, and that he really is just nitpicking a couple of "quibbles" as he put it. Contrast this keynote with his introduction of the GF3 though. He certainly knows how to promote a product when he sees fit. If this is such a hang up though, I'll drop it.

The hang up is clearly yours.

Who says he has to go all out and promote the PS3/X360?

Ever think he possibly thought the GF3 was a better product, in its market AND for game development, than the new consoles?

In a nutshell your above arguement assumes that since he promoted the GF3, yet he is not doing the same for the new consoles. That assumes he should be promoting them. If he has reservations about aspects of the product (e.g. over inflated specs, longer dev times, bad design decisions) that balance out the good ("wonderful" "as powerful as a current top of the model PC") then he should have that right.

A pathetic effort to attack him on a personal level? Because I said he's getting older and that relearning how to do things after being the top in his field for the last 20 years is going to be really difficult for him?

Actually you did attack him. If you had written what you said in a magazine or newspaper you could have been sued.

Specifically the part where you noted--and cross posted by Blue!--where he has a hard time letting younger programmers star at id

You do not know John, and you do not know if that is true at all. And yet you made a character statement about his repressive behavior at id.

That is a pathetic attack on a personal level and would get you sued for libel if you were a journalism and not a random console fan poster.

And as noted in that thread by others, JC has not only been active in establishing new dev houses, he actively brings in new blood into the community. This is through his constant support of the Mod community with tools and support + releasing his games source code

It is universally recognized that John is a smart and very qualified programmer. His opinion does not equal EVERY opinion, but he is qualified to give his stance as one of the more knowledgable devs. Very few developers stay in business as long as id has. He has created a number of 3D engines and even ones that work with multiprocessors and on the PPC platform. GPU IHV's are pretty active is seeking his opinion about where Software Development is going and needed featuresets.

He makes mistakes, has a bias, and obviously not every game he makes will appeal to everyone (or even be critically good). But overall you would be hard pressed to find a dev with the experience, knowledge, and quality record in working with cutting edge technology and moving development forward like John.

Ps- John is like 35 btw. If you have not heard here, most young programmers kind of suck, at least at making games. It takes more than a BS in Computer Science and being good at math to make a good engine and good game. The things kids are learning in college are the same things John has been working on for 2 decades. There is learning something in a book on the one hand, and using that knowledge in creating a viable, working, cutting edge 3D Software app for the commercial market on the other. One takes theory, the other requires putting that theory into practice.

 

[Acert93]

Thats why I like JC, I don't agree with his assessments in all cases but he is one of the rare unbiased people in the business.

DeanoC, you are pretty unbiased yourself. Obviuosly you have limitations, but you have always chosen your words carefully not not taken a perk on one end to smash the other. Obviuosly there are limitations to the praise/complaints you can offer, your comments always come off as geniune. That is why PC, Nintendo, Xbox, and PS enthusiests all like you

You are fair. Everyone has some bias (bias is not bad! A programmer, artist, PR, and microprocessor engineer will ALL have a different perspective depending on their goals!) but I must say your comments are ALWAYS enjoyable and well worth pondering.

Thanks for your contributions DeanoC!

 

[Nite_Hawk]

This thread might as well be locked, it's getting rediculous.

Acert93:

I never cross posted anything by blue. I had no idea that he said anything remotely similar to what I've said. My thoughts are/were my own. Not only that, but you got my quote wrong. I said that it is going to be hard for John to let other programmers be the new stars at ID. Future tense. I have no idea if John is having a hard time right now or not. He can't be the driving force behind ID forever though.

I'd appreciate it if in the future you don't misrepresent what I write and then accuse me of libel. Get your facts straight next time.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. you guys can believe whatever the hell you want.

Nite_Hawk

 

[BlueTsunami]

Yeah... I should have never cross posted Night_Hawk (spur of the moment thinking!!! it will bite you in the ass!!). But yeah...on the technical level..JC will feed me my own ass! O.O as far as motivation and whatnot..its cool that hes disheartened on the multi-core route but I feel that its an epp in the business wave and that people who embrace this and learn it will be the big winners. That type of thought applies to everything (coding, sports, art)...its just a train of thought I wish JC was expressing.

 

[Acert93]

I never said YOU cross posted annything said by Blue. I said your "great comments" were cross posted by someone else. You are so quick to say I misrepresented what you said that you did not read what I said (that Blue cross posted your comments)

Specifically the part where you noted--and cross posted by Blue!--where he has a hard time letting younger programmers star at id

As for the accusation about letting new programmers star, you insinuated things about his character. Past tense, future tense, etc... you have made the claim.

You said

I think quite honestly that JC is just suffering from getting old.

So John, in your opinion, is getting old and cannot lead id forever. Followed by:

The hardest thing for JC is going to be letting other (younger!) people be the new stars at ID.

So according to you he is suffering from age and he is going to have a difficult time letting younger people star.

Since when did you know what is, and is not, difficult for John? His history of helping out new people speaks against the character traits you are assigning the "old man".

You have no clue of what you said above is true or not, yet you still said it. It is an assault on his character to downplay what he has said. That is liable. End of story.

To the contrary, his record indicates he is more than happy to bring other people into the industry and to give them a leg up. The facts do not align with your opinion.

Actually, it's not really the same guy we are talking about. That was John 10-20 years ago. He's certainly got a lot of accomplishments under his belt, but he's not John Carmack the tireless, young, startup-company programmer anymore. He's John Carmack, the older, more well rounded, Technical Director of ID software. I don't doubt that he is still a great programmer, *especially* when dealing with things like BSP, raycasting, etc etc. What I do doubt is his authority on parellel computing given that his only brief stint with it seems to be the lackluster implementation (which was later removed) in quake 3.

He has more experience with multi-proc development than most. If he is unqualified then so is everyone else for the most part The difference being that his engines have been technical excellent from a feature/performance standpoint and he has been on the cutting edge of featureset.

Anyhow, if he is just the technical director then that means... others wrote substantial portions of the D3 [and Q3] engines Letting others write large parts of your "baby" would sure be a sign of letting others shine.

Of course, unless, he did most of the work himself which would indicate that the John of 20 years ago is the same John today. Cannot play both sides of the fence. Either he IS allowing others to shine and do more engine work OR he is still the technical guru.

And after all of this I am still waiting for substantial quotes from the keynotes.

Claiming the $300 consoles are as powerful as top of the line PCs and are "wonderful" with good tools is pretty impressive! And John's comments are inline with Gabe Newells, Shoots and ERP, Arses CPU breakdown, the devs who spoke to Anand, etc...

But, as you stated, your opinion is at ends from what you have heard from the Sony engineers. As we all know PS3/360 engineers have more at stake in the "hype" factor than devs. The fact a dev would even speak out means things may not be as great as they are indicating __for developers__. And that is the difference... theoretical maximums/PR vs. what it actually means to the guys making the machines.

 

[swaaye]

Oh My God! Please stop! What's with the endless personal cross-examinations?!?! LOL.