Quakecon 2008 keynote notes

[silhouette]

So many had said yesterday, but unfortunately, I will write only the ones I remember (I am merging the press conf part and JC's keynote speech).

- They are going for mobile gaming full-speed. They are going to release Wolfenstein RPG soon and Doom 2 RPG is also in works. I do not understand why they call these things RPG though. Thet look more like turn-based FPS When they write games, they come up with 4 common versions: java high-end, java low-end, brew high-end, brew low-end. EA mobile customizes one of these versions for each target phone. For their first two games, they were shooting for 300K and 1.2Meg markets. Now, they upped that to 600K and 2.5 Meg, so they can push the games a little bit more.

- Wolfenstien RPG has full 3d rasterizer, but has no Nazis (T-Mobile objected the idea because they fear they will alienate some of their customers)

- If I am not mistaken, they are working on a symbian OS version of Orcs and Elves for Nokia phones.

- They are working for two games for I-phone. One of them should be a graphical showcase for I-phone. JC says the GPU is roughly as powerful as Dreamcast. He also praised Apple for breaking wireless service providers dominance in application store and also for their very good/professional development environment/SDKs.

- Quakelive (quake 0) is nearing a large beta (50K ppl). From the screens, the game looks pretty nice but a little bit more simplfied version of Quake Arena. When you launch the game from the web browser, it will put you in an environment where it will test your abilities (while loading the maps and the actual game in the background). Then, it will pair you with the guys with similar FPS skills (it sounds like 360's truskill matchmaking feature). Leaderboards are supported from the beginning. In addition, all the arenas have specifically built billboards for ads. JC says they may look into paid subscription model later to remove the ads, but then, the environment will look bland and empty, so he thinks ppl will play the game with ads and do not mind. There will be no blood in this game as they are shooting for T rating (for a broader audience). JC still thinks it is an experiment, but he has high hopes as 100K ppl were signed up for beta testing.

- Wolfenstein game looks a very good current gen game. If I understood correctly, it iwll have some co-op elements (Todd talks about recruiting resistance).

- Rage looks phenomenal. The quality is almost like a pre-rendered movie. Ligthing and shadows also look very good. I notice a shadow flicker only in one place, but other than it is hard to tell it is real-time rendering. However, they need to work on explositions more. The engine has not been completed yet, but almost all crucial features are already in there. JC expects the crunch mode will start soon and wants to finish the game in two years. The game runs in 60 fps btw.

- Next Doom is annouced but nothing was shown (except there will be blood, demons, etc they say). They are shooting for 30 fps in this game, so JC said he expects x3 gfx fidelity in that game (are they shooting photo-realistic graphics now?). Btw, he said 30 fps target is on console. He said the PC GPUs will be so powerful at the time that they probably run the game at 60 fps with same fidelity easily.

- For Rage, they may have to cut the corners slightly for 360 version as they want to ship the game in 2 DVDs. He said because of the royalties paid to MS, 3 DVD version would cost them some extra millon dollars, so they do not want to release it in 3 DVDs (I understand this may change if MS will be ok to reduce the royalties).

- (This will fuel some fan discussions, but please do not shoot the messenger ) Feature/speed wise, he said 360 and PS3 are equal in some areas and 360 is better in some others (he did not specify any), but he gave a lot of praise to Sony for Bluray. I think this is one area that will hunt MS towards the end of this console cycle.

- JC (as Mark Rein also said previously) expects this generation last a lot longer than the previous generation (7-8 years). However, he added that one of the company may make a suprise to have first-to-market advantage.

- As with many other ppl, he has no idea about what kind of technology will be in the next-gen consoles. He said all Nvidia, Intel and AMD are talking with 3-bigs for the next-gen graphics, but the developers are mostly in dark currently.

- He found CUDA, compute shaders, and openCL interesting, but does not know if it is currently viable to design an engine around them.

- His megageometry idea is still mostly for terrain rendering. The classic character design with skeletal animation will still be with us for a while.

- Armadillo space has now three full-time engineers and they are getting contracts from NASA.

Btw, is there anyone who was at the convention from here? It might be nice to have a beyond3d get together there

 

[Laa-Yosh]

- For Rage, they may have to cut the corners slightly for 360 version as they want to ship the game in 2 DVDs. He said because of the royalties paid to MS, 3 DVD version would cost them some extra millon dollars, so they do not want to release it in 3 DVDs (I understand this may change if MS will be ok to reduce the royalties).

I'd say it's his way of putting some pressure on MS to change their policy. First of all it's an utterly stupid approach, limiting all external studios to two DVDs and forcing them to cut content and quality. I'd also say that it's not public information and JC wasn't supposed to reveal it.

Second, it's obvious that FFXIII also has to be an exception from this rule, otherwise Square wouldn't release it. So there's a precedent.

The id fan crowd will now start to roast MS until they give in, not to mention how bad it'd make them look in the eyes of the public.

Good to see that Carmack's still a rebel.

 

[JardeL]

Hmm , maybe " royalty fee for per DVD " is one of the main reasons behind MS's decision about not to integrate HD DVD ...

 

[22psi]

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169112

Video interview with Carmack. He dishes dirt on both MS and Sony.

I really like this guy, speaks from the heart and tells it like it is.

 

[woundingchaney]

Hmm , maybe " royalty fee for per DVD " is one of the main reasons behind MS's decision about not to integrate HD DVD ...

Highly doubtful. Million other reasons why HD DVD was not a viable alternative (for instance the console releasing in 2005).

Though the issue does bring a good bit of questions as to why MS is charging per disk. This is something that hasnt been mentioned prior to this and is something that MS should seriously reconsider as the generation moves forward.

 

[Rangers]

Hmm , maybe " royalty fee for per DVD " is one of the main reasons behind MS's decision about not to integrate HD DVD ...

Hmm, I was wondering, how many multi-disc games have actually shipped on 360 so far? I assume Blue Dragon and lost Odyssey for two. Perhaps being both first party, the multi-disc royalty wouldn't apply.

I agree with Laa Yosh, this is Carmacks way of pressuring MS and hopefully it will work for the good of gamers.

Also I think it was Laa Yosh who implied up there that theres isn't an extra royalty on 2 discs, only once you go to 3. Is that known to be true or just a unsourced guess?

Also, of course a lot of Carmack interviews are hitting the press in wake of Qaukecon, heres an interesting one tread carefully http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=203956

"What you can say really quite clearly and not get into too much argument about it is that the 360 is much easier to develop for, it's easier to get the performance out of it that it can deliver, and the rasterizer, the GPU side is generally faster than what the PS3 has," Carmack told Eurogamer at QuakeCon.

"But," he added later, "the fact that Blu-ray won the format wars on there is a huge feather in Sony's cap, and then we wind up with cases like what we're seeing right now where having all the extra space on the Blu-ray may be a useful thing for us above the fact that the hardware's not quite as good in terms of what it can do with the processing."

Basically he said the 360 GPU (and even overall processing power) is a little higher/better which seems to confirm the B3D consensus for some time, but that Blu Ray is a notable edge for PS3.

 

[idsn6]

The interview surmises that the multiple royalties for multiple discs are to discourage unfavorable comparison with single-Bluray versions.

 

[obonicus]

Basically he said the 360 GPU (and even overall processing power) is a little higher/better which seems to confirm the B3D consensus for some time, but that Blu Ray is a notable edge for PS3.

B3D consensus (if there is such a thing) is that the RSX is inferior to the Xenos (to be more precise, consensus is that the Xenos is easier to get more out of). No one likes the RSX, that I can tell. Beyond3d likes the Cell a lot more, though, and I don't think anyone likes Xenon (there's agreement that coding for the Xenon is easier, too). What's closer to B3D consensus, that I can tell, and essentially a way to deflate console wars is: the 360 has the edge graphically, but the PS3 may make up for it in terms of CPU power. So everyone's equal and everyone gets hugs. All theoretical, though. (Strangely, though, that though the memory differences are prime fodder for Joystiq experts, it's not really mentioned much.)

 

[Rangers]

It's interesting in the 1up video, he actually gives a specific case where RSX would outperform Xenos, he says a very vertex heavy scene with 4XAA, due to not having to tile on RSX.

From my armchair B3D reading, I believe I know why, because a heavy vertex scene would cause an extra heavy hit from tiling. But I'm not sure about the 4XAA part, wouldnt 2XAA work for his example just as well? Doesnt 2XAA require the same tiles on Xenos as 4XAA?

Also anybody know if video of the entire quakecon keynote is anywhere? IGN says they'll have it later, but who knows when or even if or why they havent already..

 

[AlNom]

But I'm not sure about the 4XAA part, wouldnt 2XAA work for his example just as well? Doesnt 2XAA require the same tiles on Xenos as 4XAA?

For FP10/INT8/Z32 @ 720p, 4x requires one more tile.

 

[speedsix]

I understand this may come across as fanboy drivel but I struggle to get anything from that video other than Mr C thinks the 360 hardware is superior and any Cell benefits are rare and generally wedged firmly in theoretical land.

 

[patsu]

Yes, that seems to be Carmack's personal views as a cross platform developer. We probably should look to the exclusive devs for such "theoretical" games though. ;-)

Also his view seems to focus on visual only, I am more curious about other aspects (e.g., input, physics, AI, etc.).

 

[JardeL]

Rage and id's Love/Hate Relationship with the PS3

While Carmack has long said he thinks that the architecture of the Xbox 360 is better, it sounds like he [ id Software CEO Todd Hollenshead ] and others at id Software feel that the PS3 has done a much better job of future proofing.

"And the issue isn't just about the game being too big, Hollenshead says that developers lose upwards of 2 gigs of space per a disc because of information Microsoft requires developers to put on the discs."

Sony "had a bunch of hardware engineers talking about theoretical power, but (Carmack) said 'yeah, this isn’t how software people work' and they said 'yeah, this is how they should work.'"

"I think the blu-ray strategy and some of the other things they’ve done in terms how (the PS3) is positioned as a home entertainment device, shows that (Sony) is placing their bet on the PS3 as a marathon runner not a sprint and Microsoft was a little more focused on the short term goals."

[ http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-ids-lovehate-relationship-with-the-ps3 ] ...

There's one thing that I can't get about JC... He's bla bla bla ,no need to prove himself , ok , but where's the passion about new tech ?.. Ok it's hard to develop for but why whining all the time instead of delivering us new coding ways etc. for CELL ?.. I have respect on him because of his past but for me Insomniac , Naughty Dog or Kojimason are more respectable ...

Not a Sony fan btw

 

[liolio]

[ http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-ids-lovehate-relationship-with-the-ps3 ] ...

There's one thing that I can't get about JC... He's bla bla bla ,no need to prove himself , ok , but where's the passion about new tech ?.. Ok it's hard to develop for but why whining all the time instead of delivering us new coding ways etc. for CELL ?.. I have respect on him because of his past but for me Insomniac , Naughty Dog or Kojimason are more respectable ...

Not a Sony fan btw

I think that you completely miss his point, the only purpose of hardware is to run software.
Non coherent memory space is something new?

I know the four different systems, pc, wii, 360, ps3 out of this four only one pass on caches.
If some patent post in the "predict the next generation..." thread have some truth in them it's not even sure that that cell successor will pass on cache.

I see nothing coming on the hardware front from the main vendors that scream caches or SMP are doomed.

On Carmack himself? Well I think that your comment is almost unbearable.
I wonder about opening a new thread about limits next gen systems will have to face (instead of what they will be made off).
They face face limits of different kind:
better lighning.
better animations (see some recent bungies statements, well fond imho).
more interactive environments (there an interesting article on gamasutra about how online can limit development of physic in game).
More complex environment.

No matter you use use something like euphoria engine to create animation you still need RAM to store the state of characters.
Same with physic (if you don't consider the bandwidth/lag problem) if you destroy bunch of stuffs you need to keep more and more stuffs in RAM/

For more complec environemnt you face geometry issues.

So what about this conservative Carmack?
Well he is the one who comes with an interesting trade off that can save RAM (a hugely limitating factor for quiet some of the afformetinoned points) and bring more variety to our games (I pass on making artists more happy/free).

He is the one thinking thinking NOW about hybrid rendering and how voxels could allowed to overcome some inherant rasterization issue with geometry.

Well I stop here but I don't think it's clever to criticize and in a pretty much uneducated manner someone who is likely to be way cleveerr than both of us put together...

Cheers.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think that you completely miss his point, the only purpose of hardware is to run software...
On Carmack himself? Well I think that your comment is almost unbearable.

I think keyn's disappointment is that Carmack used to be a 'tech head' or 'uber nerd' for whom hardware was important, and poking around in assembly to achieve amazing things was fun. Now he's more the business man, wanting a product and wanting to create it the easiest way.

I don't know if that's true, I don't know Carmack's history or origins at all well, but I understand that's the case, and he's said as much IIRC. That is both a sad thing for geeks who like those who push the hardware (yesterday I happened to come across some amazing Sinclar Specturm creations being created well into the 90s and seeing incredile things!) but also a logical advance. Hardware isn't as simple as it used to be; people have to earn a crust for them and their employees; cross-platform creation throws up barriers to single-platform optimizations; etc. It might be fair to lament the disappearance of a technology wizard (though Carmack's technologies are still doing amazing things, even if not on the level of platform optimizations) but I wouldn't begrudge him. If this is what's happened.

 

[-tkf-]

I think keyn's disappointment is that Carmack used to be a 'tech head' or 'uber nerd' for whom hardware was important, and poking around in assembly to achieve amazing things was fun. Now he's more the business man, wanting a product and wanting to create it the easiest way.

I don't know if that's true, I don't know Carmack's history or origins at all well, but I understand that's the case, and he's said as much IIRC. That is both a sad thing for geeks who like those who push the hardware (yesterday I happened to come across some amazing Sinclar Specturm creations being created well into the 90s and seeing incredile things!) but also a logical advance. Hardware isn't as simple as it used to be; people have to earn a crust for them and their employees; cross-platform creation throws up barriers to single-platform optimizations; etc. It might be fair to lament the disappearance of a technology wizard (though Carmack's technologies are still doing amazing things, even if not on the level of platform optimizations) but I wouldn't begrudge him. If this is what's happened.

Take a look here:
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/finger.pl?id=1&time=20000601040557

This update actually is one of the first steps towards less nerd, ohh and when he got married and started aiming for space.

It starts with some company related stuff and at the bottom we go technical in his classic ways. I used to read all those plan files everyday, it was my personal beyond3d before i started reading here

 

[Subtlesnake]

I think keyn's disappointment is that Carmack used to be a 'tech head' or 'uber nerd' for whom hardware was important, and poking around in assembly to achieve amazing things was fun. Now he's more the business man, wanting a product and wanting to create it the easiest way.

I don't see his comments as saying that he's not prepared to make effective use of hardware like the Cell - rather he's lamenting the fact that he has to put such effort in, in the first place. I mean, he specifically warns against taking 'easy' route to multiplatform development by just focusing on what works well on all 3 platforms:

"Certain things are easier on the 360 than the PS3, but you put the extra effort in where it’s required. You don’t want to minimum common denominator it, and just do what’s easy on the different platforms. The intersection of that is not so great"

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fe...erview_rage_id_tech_6_doom_4_details_and_more

So IMO the issue is not whether id is committed to taking full advantage of the console hardware, but the fact that this has cost them heavily in the case of the PS3, where they have to put a lot more time and effort in to hit the same 60 FPS bar. And this seems like a perfectly fine position to take.

Why would Carmack want difficulty for difficulties sake? Surely to be an effective developer he has to be concerned with making the best use out of the company's limited resources in the first place?

 

[Richard]

Ok it's hard to develop for but why whining all the time instead of delivering us new coding ways etc. for CELL ?

He doesn't whine all the time, just when people throw a mic on his face at E3/QuakeCon, not like some game devs which will do that every single interview they field throughout the year. Also, you do know that Rage is running 60fps on the PS3 right? And there's not a single prerendered frame unlike some other trailers that are floating around.

You should start by reading the articles linked in this thread. If you had, you'd found the following paragraph:

One thing he did want to emphasise about the systems, however, is that they're "both really good". "That's why any time that people make comments one way or the other about the consoles, it's easy to leave aside of the fact that it's the best that it's ever been in any generation in terms of support capabilities and all that."

He's once again by his own words, nit picking. Because an interview/keynote wouldn't be that interesting if all he said was "yeah, it's great" to any question put to him.

So IMO the issue is not whether id is committed to taking full advantage of the console hardware, but the fact that this has cost them heavily in the case of the PS3, where they have to put a lot more time and effort in to hit the same 60 FPS bar. And this seems like a perfectly fine position to take.

Why would Carmack want difficulty for difficulties sake? Surely to be an effective developer he has to be concerned with making the best use out of the company's limited resources in the first place?

And this is no different from when Gabe Newel complained working on the GFFX cards was taking them 5x the development time as the Radeons back in 2003. There wasn't that big of a problem back then. But now, oh man, now it's the console! So every little bit of tinder provokes a massive explosion.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't see his comments as saying that he's not prepared to make effective use of hardware like the Cell - rather he's lamenting the fact that he has to put such effort in, in the first place...Why would Carmack want difficulty for difficulties sake?

Because some people, the true uber-nerds, actually like things to be difficult! That's the challenge, making hardware do incredible things no matter how hard it is, rather than dropping that hardware and picking up another bit of kit that gets the same results easily. A strange breed of people who shun the easy way just because it is easy.

Again, this isn't my opinion on the matter, only an explanation as to how this line of thinking actually does pan out, even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I think keyn's disappointment is that Carmack used to be a 'tech head' or 'uber nerd' for whom hardware was important, and poking around in assembly to achieve amazing things was fun. Now he's more the business man, wanting a product and wanting to create it the easiest way.

I wouldn't necessarily say thats the case, he specifically pointed out that he hasn't gone the management side of things because he knows where hos talent lie and he wants to stay focused there. I think what you are seeing is the result of id growing to be a bigger company and there are obviously a lot more developers going in to making an engine and one/two key technical people can only do so much in a modern game/engine.