John Carmack talks next gen consoles at Quakecon 2013 keynote

His talk on lighting is very informative, highly recommended for anyone interested in the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssmBTzde3l4

It's also a good demonstration on what are his main strengths IMHO. He has a nice combination of the abilities to absorb information like a sponge, recognize what's relevant to his purposes and develop a highly efficient implementation of it.
For example his up to date and precise knowledge of the state of offline rendering is not that common in developers, IMHO. Like how Pixar used to be all about proceduralism and faking stuff as efficiently as possible; and now they're raytracing global illumination with physically correct shading models and hand-crafted assets in Monsters University, just like pretty much everyone else.

(Okay, Weta is still holding on to a unique pipeline, but I wonder what happens to that with the Avatar sequels)
 
Actually I bring PC into the picture purposefully because pretty much PC gamers are also in denial about the +100Watts GPU cards, with the next gen consoles acting as a pretty low ceiling on perfs, as soon as you will see APU (kaveri +gddr5 would be pretty close already) with sane performances it will be interesting to see what the average steam user does.

What!!! as a pc gamer in what way am i in denial about 100watt gfx cards ? are you saying I dont believe they exist ? and what are you expecting me (or an average stem user) to do when i see an apu ???
 
His talk on lighting is very informative, highly recommended for anyone interested in the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssmBTzde3l4

It's also a good demonstration on what are his main strengths IMHO. He has a nice combination of the abilities to absorb information like a sponge, recognize what's relevant to his purposes and develop a highly efficient implementation of it.
For example his up to date and precise knowledge of the state of offline rendering is not that common in developers, IMHO. Like how Pixar used to be all about proceduralism and faking stuff as efficiently as possible; and now they're raytracing global illumination with physically correct shading models and hand-crafted assets in Monsters University, just like pretty much everyone else.

(Okay, Weta is still holding on to a unique pipeline, but I wonder what happens to that with the Avatar sequels)

Is that carmack's daughter in the video :oops:
 
It speaks to his point of reference as a multi-platform developer, where the overall trend is that the 360 has been more consistent in terms of performance and developer accessibility this generation.

The pending transition to next gen and the onerous system limitations of the current gen don't give me much reason to expect that much is left in the tank, and I don't think we need to dwell on it when Durango and Orbis can almost have frame rate hiccups on the order of what the previous gen can offer in peak.

In reference to your tank comment, remember multi-plat development didn't start with Battlefield and Crysis. Many don't work at any point with a comparable level of talent. In addition, you have political, technical, and time constraints that often kept the 360 and occasionally the PS3 from being showcased in their best light. Even Santa Monica as a 1st party was a slave to time in 2013. Therefore, I don't see a meaningful overall trend as far as power is concerned.

As far as Carmack's perspective, why so much weight on an individual supposedly dividing his attention between Rift, id software, and rockets? Instead of the girls and guys working hard to achieve great results on console and eager to be at the forefront of console technology? I don't think his pedigree vaults him to the front of the line on where consoles are headed. The company he founded is not the same company it was years ago.
 
Carmack went to Oculus Rift today etc etc.


I think a decent argument can be made Carmack is becoming a failure. It's a bit weird. I saw a gaffer more or less say something to that effect over the keynote, and that he was sad about it.

Id is in pretty bad shape, he put in hibernation armadillo aerospace... I cant imagine the Rift guys are paying him too much just yet.

The Rift thing will be a big opportunity to the upside no doubt, but there's no guarantee of cashing that in. Almost back to startup, bootsraps status for Carmack.

I imagine he has a nice nest egg, but the size of that egg would play a lot into my view of his success. If it's huge, then he can really putter around with whatever. If it's more modest sized, then you can argue his success more.
 
Carmack went to Oculus Rift today etc etc.


I think a decent argument can be made Carmack is becoming a failure. It's a bit weird. I saw a gaffer more or less say something to that effect over the keynote, and that he was sad about it.

Id is in pretty bad shape, he put in hibernation armadillo aerospace... I cant imagine the Rift guys are paying him too much just yet.

The Rift thing will be a big opportunity to the upside no doubt, but there's no guarantee of cashing that in. Almost back to startup, bootsraps status for Carmack.

I imagine he has a nice nest egg, but the size of that egg would play a lot into my view of his success. If it's huge, then he can really putter around with whatever. If it's more modest sized, then you can argue his success more.

Not everybody measure success in monetary terms.
 
In the keynote John mentions he put most of what he agreed with his wife would be his 'crazy money' into Armadillo, but that now ran out and Armadillo is in hibernation until external investors put money into it.

I want Oculus to succeed and hopefully he can help. Apparently a lot of big PC players are involved, and I imagine the industry as a whole could benefit if successful.
 
I think a decent argument can be made Carmack is becoming a failure. It's a bit weird. I saw a gaffer more or less say something to that effect over the keynote, and that he was sad about it.

I completely disagree with that. id is certainly having problems but I don't see how or why that would be Carmack's failure.
Let's get a few things straight first though.


id has never really been a studio with huge sales, their best selling title to date is Doom 3 with something like 3-4 million units plus whatever this BFG edition has made. But their self-financing and small studio model has made them extremely profitable, and their technological prowess made them highly influential too. Also, their shareware approach has allowed Doom to multiply that effect.


Realtime 3D graphics is converging to a singular approach and it's very close to become a solved problem. I've posted about it a lot, but just take a look at current presentations to verify it - HDR gamma correct rendering, physically correct shading, shadow buffers and so on.
Most of the technology at this time is some approximation of the real thing (which would be to raytrace every pixel within the above mentioned framework), and there is some competitive edge in how someone can do these approximations (like global illumination or area lights), but faster hardware is going to eventually take care of that too.
All in all it's absolutely different to the age when hardware limitations made it necessary to be extremely clever in doing even simple stuff like sorting polygons for rendering. At that time it was much easier for a genius like Carmack to come up with solutions that put his tech way ahead of everyone else. Today it's much harder to stand out from a crowd of games that all look extremely good, just as it's much harder to move the general gaming experience ahead the way the move to 3D did.

On the other hand, the complexity of games has moved forward significantly, and a simple straightforward FPS like Doom can not even be considered at the arcade level, the audience expects more. So games need a huge team of designers, artists, and engineers to build gameplay systems and physics engines and such. Standing up to these expectations has required id to abandon the small studio approach, and the amount of capital necessary has also meant that they had to fit into the publisher system. This transition was apparently not managed well enough and this is what lead to id's current problems.

Also, most of the original team at id has left the studio or was fired (and Paul Steed has actually passed away about a year ago...). Romero was much publicized, Tom Hall not so much, and they both faded away from the front lines of game development long ago. Graeme Devine, Sandy Petersen, American McGee are more or less in the same situation and they weren't that influential at id anyway. Adrian Carmack was fired back in 2005. Kenneth Scott and Sparth (Nicolas Bouvier) has left during Rage's development to take over Halo's visuals at 343. So I think only Tim Willits and Kevin Cloud are still there from that Doom-Quake team by now.


So, one could argue about Carmack's role in id's management issues over the past year mostly because he was one of the original owners before the Zenimax sale. He probably had some level of say in the larger decisions but I don't think it had too much weight in the end. Blaming him for the Doom 4 issue would definitely be too much.

The other argument could be that Rage was delayed because of its extremely work intensive unique virtual texturing approach. However that wasn't the main factor in its relatively modest sales, which I frankly consider to be unfair as the game is quite good. I also believe it looks amazing, especially considering the 60Hz framerate.


He explained the Armadillo issue in several articles, it's mostly that space exploration is hard and needs a LOT more money than he had. Once again I don't see how one could consider it him failing.


And lastly, the keynote and the second talk has demonstrated how well informed he is about the state of not only the games industry, but also offline graphics, consumer electronics devices, technologies and market trends, and a couple of other things too.


So, all in all I find your statement completely unjustified. And Carmack has moved to Oculus to be part of that next possible great step, VR, now that the graphics problems are practically solved; and probably also because it's a small group of people and he misses the old days of id. I fully expect him to contribute to VR greatly, even if it might not be that easy to see his part in the final results.
 
Thanks guys.

Forgot to get to the sales issue in that while Rage may at first seem to be a failure, it is in fact probably in the range of other id games, possibly even proportional to the size of the market.
Doom3 was most likely an exception for various reasons, like lots of people too young to have played the old Doom games were curious and there was also the tech. So Rage was more like typical fare for an id game, still selling more than 2 million altogether? VGChartz lists the two console versions combined at 2.7 and there were probably lots of Steam sales on the PC as well, especially judging by the noise about the ATI driver issues (which wasn't Carmack's fault either and yet he had to take a lot of blame...)

Edit: consider that the first Uncharted is listed on VGC at 4.6 million units; if Rage has managed to sell 2.7 on consoles, 0.3 on PC retail and 0.5 on Steam, it's only a million units less. And Uncharted is widely considered here on B3D to be a success, which means Rage couldn't really be written off as a failure either.
 
Well 1 million less on three platforms over the course of 4-5 years in which ND has made four games. Not to mention tons of people bought Rage <$20, the price tanked fast. I paid $5 for my Steam version.
 
Wow that was a good read!

Regardless of what people think of his games, I've never understood why people would be so dismissive of him and his abilities/intelligence.

Even Rage which people like to say was a failure, the megatextures was something that was new and guess what, lots of developers are now looking at using the concepts from what I can tell.
Isn't that pretty much what PRT is?
 
I have this recurring nightmare where, by middle age, I drive the development of multiple leading-edge software techniques and engines, become noteworthy in the eyes of a whole genre of fans, and make a lot of money.
The next step in my nightmare, I start feeling like I'm not doing anything new anymore with game engines, so I proceed to make something boring like freaking space rockets.
It doesn't work out, leaving me destitute with just way more money than most people.
I then get hired as an executive in an up and coming startup focused on something leading-edge that excites me--yet another horrible twist where I find myself doing something I find personally fulfilling.
I then wake up screaming.

Thank goodness I'm not failing like that.
 
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Well 1 million less on three platforms over the course of 4-5 years in which ND has made four games. Not to mention tons of people bought Rage <$20, the price tanked fast. I paid $5 for my Steam version.

And id is about half the size of Naughty Dog, with no major support behind them from a console platform holder.

Rage sold well enough, period.
 
Even Rage which people like to say was a failure, the megatextures was something that was new and guess what, lots of developers are now looking at using the concepts from what I can tell.
Isn't that pretty much what PRT is?

Exactly, Carmack spent almost a decade asking for hardware support for virtualized textures and later, for virtualized geometry. The vendors didn't do anything so he wrote a software implementation and released a successful multiplatform game with it.

Now we know Lionhead did an implementation too, and that both Battlefield 3 and Trials 2 are using a non-unique virtual texturing implementation - and so the nextgen consoles are coming with hardware support, as you said.

On top of that Rage sold 3+ million units and had a development team of less than a hundred people. Compare that to more than a thousand people working on Assassin's Creed games - yeah they sell more copies but cost way way more money too...

So no, I don't see how he could be considered a failure. Then there's 3dilettante's opinion on top of that, too ;)
 
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