JC Keynote talks consoles

Supercomputers and computing arrays. Heck, I looked into getting a dual-processor in the 90s. It is not a new concept. A big IHV like Intel or AMD bringing them to the mass market is only new.

As for the majic pill part... fact is multi-core systems do not always speed up performance much. It really depends on the code and problem. e.g. Graphics scale almost 100%. Each pipeline is like its own little CPU for graphics processing.

Other tasks, like general desktop processing benefit very little from multi processor environments unless one is multitasking, and even then it is almost never 2x in performance.

In the server market a lot of times we looked at it as 1.5x peak and 1.2x average. In some situations where performance goes up with 2 or 3 it begins to go down after a 4.

In a nutshel 3 3.2GHz cores is NOT like a 9.6GHz processor. I am sure MANY developers would choose a 6GHz PPC core over a tricore processor at 3.2GHz. Not only is it easier to work with it would ALSO be a lot faster in many situations.

i.e. multi processors is not a majic solution.

The good news is that over time I believe new ways and solutions handling threading will appear. The problem is 1.) they are not very obvious at this point in time for game development because very little time/effort has been put into this area and 2.) the tools REALLY suck for it at this time.

You have to start somewhere because clock speeds are not going up anytime soon. That said, Carmak feels there were better options. That is where the difference is. He realizes it will occur, but he thinks MS and Sony jumped the gun. MS and Sony obviously disagree.

So there will be growing pains. The good news is that the sooner devs start on multi-core engines the quicker we will get solutions... an added benefit is that the next gen consoles have a lot more room to grow. That is kind of bad for small companies struggling with maximizing the potential of the system, but for big devs it means 3rd gen games can look to 2nd gen games as 2nd gen games do to 1st gen games. Of course it would have been nice to make that power more accessible but as we all know that was really not an option.

 

THAT much harder than what? a PC? Yeah, it really is. Harder than a similar architecture like a PS2? Maybe, I'm not really sure.

John Carmack's comments are very valid in my opinion. There are a lot of issues with multi-core processing and it will require some very creative thinking. He isn't doomsaying, he simply is saying "yeah, these are great but I would've perferred a more traditional architecture."

Its like having 8 copies of yourself. Sure it sounds great at first. Now consider that you only deal with [a small amount of] cash so you'll have to split that between all of your copies. They can take money out of the bank if they need it, but its a rather long drive. Now try to think of how you would put all 8 copies to good use on a typical day. Bear in mind the little things like some tasks being dependant on the completion of others.

Now obviously you can come up with some easy examples like painting every room in your house at once or something. My point is just that while some things are very easily done in parallel, not everything is. Having 8 copies isn't going to make your trip to work any faster, for example.

I'd rather just have superpowers than worry about how I'm going to distribute my day amongst 8 normal people.

 

I think the important distinction here is that all that experience was still in the x86 domain. If Xbox was the extent of his "console experience", that was still pretty much x86 expertise. So the issue is how much does he really have to stand on when it comes to assessing something that is NOT x86? Has he ever even done a PPC game on a Mac, for example? So is it even a surprise if he has some teeth cutting due, when it comes to work on a PPE system? I think I could believe him more if he was a bit more humble to say, "I need to really rehone my skills to get these console architectures running like I want", rather than, "Waaaah, it's not an Intel chip, why didn't they stick with x86 so I could still be a programming god?!"

At least that is what he sounds like to me.

 

all id games come out on PPC, and it's not coding for PPC it's coding for multiple cpu's

 

I.m.h.o.

i think a lot of people question the validity of his claims against the consoles because he hasn't specifically made an engine for a particular console...

that being said, i am aware that a lot of people will argue that his quake 3 engine was widely used for the ps2/xbox games...

however... it's not really to his credit I.H.M.O.

other delvelopers liscensed his engine and modified it (moderately to heavily) for the consoles...

it wasn't modified by Carmack himself, but by the people employed by the company who licsensed it.

what i'm trying to say is...

i would rather believe someone who actually is worked on the console environment than someone who hasn't recieved any DIRECT "badges" or should I say "battle scars" in developing specifically for a console.


EDIT!!!!

sorry if my posty was incoherent... i was mumbling as i was typing...

 

This comes from an intepetation of someone that was at the speech personally. Now I guess Carmack didn't see EA's demo of Fight Night 3 for the PS3. Creating expressive faces will be in Fight Night 3. 100 million dollars, I doubt EA would approve of that. There facial expressions are FAR greater than anything we have seen to date. EVER in life even.

 

I do agree with Acert93 on many issues he brought up. I've just now stepped into the realm of "PC" multicore programming (and by no means am I a programmer or designer of the lvl of JC, Deanoc, EMP) and I can tell you that its no cakewalk. (I can only imagine the challenges that the Xbox 360 CPU and Cell CPU would offer). Although I must admit that it hasnt been smooth sailing (and I probably couldnt go into a church without a fear of it falling in on me due to the amount of cursing Ive done ) Through all the sweat and tears I do see the potential there.

As for JC I think he deserves alot of respect (much more then has been given by some people in this discussion). He has contributed so much to the progression of 3D graphics and gaming. Granted since the unveiling of the UE3 engine people might not see him at the top of the game right now but I tell you this much. The man has made a huge impact and will be (and still is) considered one of the best in his field. His name is solidified in gaming history and at the very least he should have an opinion on field he has helped progress. Heck I would like to have half the programming knowledge and recognition he has.

JC a God No. But a man that earned the right to give his opinions whether you agree with them or not? Yes.

 

After seeing this video, is JC trying to down play console gaming to a point where it leaves hope for PC gamers that their PC gaming hardware isn't going to cave in anytime soon and that the money they will be spending in the near future was well spent? Because thats the way I see this video, PR talk to keep the hopes of the PC gaming world alive.

BTW, Its interesting hearing two different stances taken by JC and Epic about Cell processing. And it'll be interesting to see what engine JC has to compete against Epic's UE3.

 

My answer to that quote would have to be a YES. I respect the guy alot, but I don't have to think he's right about everything. See some people are drons and don't want to read what he actually said. He stated this.

Now doesn't the CELL chip help with graphics more than any other CPU on the market now or near near future? So CELL's graphics cabilities are not that high huh? So a 4 Ghz P4 would have been better? Please this is the nonsense that me and some others are referring to.

We all know that the man is somewhat of a king. Almost Elvis like, but I don't have to be a robot to him either.

 

Depends on the game, probably.

I think you misinterpret his intention. He was arguing against IBM that graphics was done. He sees 1 to 2 orders of magnitude more graphics power being useful. I don't remember getting the impression from the video that he was downplaying Cell's ability to assist in graphics tasks.

He later directly addressed implementing physics and AI on Cell.


So, basically, I'm pretty sure that what you don't like about his keynote stems from misinterpretation. And, if I may be so bold, this really doesn't matter too much. It's not worth getting worked up about.

 

Has he ever done one in PPC, rather than a developer group he had nothing to do with personally (MacSoft?). That is an important distinction. Multiple CPU's is yet another layer to handle. If it were just that, he wouldn't have much to bitch about either, as the days he will have that luxury (single CPU architecture) in PC land are becoming numbered, as well. These are all challenges to his home turf that he will need to attend to sooner or later. Even if it is later, I imagine he would still be bitching that it was "too soon". At some point, you have to suspect that it will always be "too soon", as it becomes clear that he is really bemoaning the unpleasant encroachment of "never". Either he will bother to evolve and adapt to the industry, or he will be frozen in his "era". It's not too unbelievable that he will wisen up eventually and stow his ego long enough to get some real good work done (of course, not w/o a lot of bitching and whining).

 

Carmack did a fair amount of Quake 3 Dev on Macs. Remember, the first Quake 3 test came out on Mac first.

 

All I see in this thread is a lot of hate for JC. No idea why Lol

 

A demo isn't a game.

?

Are you saying that a simple demo has greter facial expressions than you have seen in real life?

Honestly you need to calm down in this thread and think before you keep posting and trying to put words in JC's mouth.

 

JC has way more authority, skill, knowledge anc consequence than say a Mark Rein.

Its unfortunate that folks like the "hopeful road" rather than the "honest road". JC as a progrmamer helped bring the gaming world Into 3d, Through 3d and now Beyond 3d. Its amazing that the person who is a lot of the reason why folks have something to talk about on this board is being so reviled (for telling the truth at that).

It doesnt matter whether you like his comments or not. They are for all intents and purposes true and fair estimates of what it takes to make it in this round of console wars..

 

I thought there was another guy, Graeme something.

JC appeared at the keynotes with Jobs but I thought it was some other guy at ID who was big into OS X because of its Next heritage.

 

Basically, because irrespective of everything people here might know in their heads, they still really want to cling to hopes that they will be blown away.

When you get right down to it, he's not exactly alone in voicing his concerns. I mean, there's a number of issues with next-gen CPUs, and the big challenge is not just multi-core or in-order or high memory latency... it's that you're suffering for all of them at once. I haven't heard anyone who could say anything positive unless they were first or second party developers or had some major stake involved. Not saying that means they conclusively can't be trusted at all, but I am saying the confidence level drops because of it.

There are still too many hopes and prayers that haven't really been answered, and for everything we think is going to be answered given time, I'm not holding my breath. There really isn't any hope. You'll probably just see history repeat itself, which isn't necessarily a bad thing... It's just a lot less impressive than telling everybody that the hardware totally rocks and you can expect all sorts of miracles. So everybody hates Carmack for telling them in such a vocal way that miracles don't exist -- rather, that there shouldn't be any surprises.

 

We all knew multi core development would have its hurdles, however the way he is presenting himself is as a dinosaur that is used to x86. As randycat said, if his point with his Q4 comparison was that OoO code would run not all that well on 3 In order CPUs, well, wouldn´t that be pretty obvious?

I very sincerely doubt both Sony and MS would bother with multicore CPUs if they could be dwarfed by a current single core CPU. The lazyness (or ineptitude) is on someone´s side, and I doubt it´s on the console maker´s.

And yet that does not negate that the immense mayority of his work (and of many other PC developers) has been done on a single plattform, the PC. The developers who work on that plattforms have had it very easy for a very long time, having the fortune of creating bloated, memory demanding code and the benefit of not having to research and understand a single architecture, due to an abstraction layer.

What validity Carmack´s opinion on consoles really has, when he has never done any significant work on consoles? I would say it´s very obvious he would complain, wouldn´t you?

And how exactly is that different from this generation? Look at Xbox, it was pretty much the only console that recieved PC-based games due to it being almost a standard PC itself. PC developers didn´t bother with PS2 and GCN most of the time. That proved to be a mistake, since market conditions change, and the PC one isn´t in a state of bonanza. In my humble opinion, now that they want a more significant presence on consoles, then they should take the challenge with a good attitude, since that challenge comes with the territory. Some do it properly (Epic), some do not.

The Quake 3 engine had to be very heavily modified by development houses in order for it to work properly on consoles. It also wasn´t exactly displaying the most enthralling visuals either when compared to proper engines made for a specific console. In any case, John Carmack´s involvement in those was pretty much nill.

I´ll reply to the rest later, I´ve gotta go to class.

 

That is a great confidence booster coming from a dev. What I think your comments show is exactly what has been mentioned before, that this generation will separate the good from the great, and I find it troubling that you have no hope for something you are developing on. So the question I ask you is, what is your motivation? Why not just go back to the PC where it is "easier"? Also, of the non-first or "second"-party devs, how many were PC devs that you've heard voice their concern, because that is what seems to be where the large outcry resides. I am not privvy to insider information I am only going by what I read from various sources.


OT aside: As a Cubs fan, if I believe in jinxes, don't I have to believe in miracles as well?

 

why are you bringing up quake 4 he is not even working on that, last I heard that is also being done at raven, he is talking about the engine he is working on now, have you watched the video or read the transcripts, it's not like he came out and said the new consoles are trash no one sould buy them, he just spoke on how hard it would be to get great performance out of them, this is the same guy that pushes the pc to it's limit everytime one of his games come out, to try and say he's not a good programmer or doesn't know what he's talking about is just insane

probably because it's more money to be made on the console, if you want to make a good profit or just cover your budget more than likely you are going to have to put something on all the platforms