If PS3 can really do 1Tflops

DISCLAIMER: I'm heavily biased towards PC gaming so take everything with a grain of salt :D

Getting back on topic and away from a hopeless PS2/XBox flame war (I mean c'mon both look crap, really. Poly counts mean nothing when you are playing at low res with horrible 60hz refresh. How can anybody handle that? See, biased, uhh back on topic now...) I think that sony are doing a lot of hype and that is never a good thing. No way they are going to deliver all their promises. So PS2 is 100x the power of the PS1? It sure does not look 100x better. You always get diminishing returns, doubling polys won't make scenes look twice as smooth. Check out ToyStory vs ToyStory2. I would argue that in the scene complexity you can only notice a small difference yet TS2 has twice the poly count of TS. It looks nicer but not twice as nice (at least IMO).

The PS3 will not be able to render FF:TSW in real time. Its nice to dream but it won't happen. By 2005 when the PS3 comes out it will be expected to render to HDTV not current TV resolution, which is still lower than film but already quite high. Offline rendering of FF:TSW would take several hours per frame. Say a frame takes 10 hours to render and we want 60fps that would mean 10*60*60*60 = 129,600,000 that is how many times faster the PS3 CPU would have to be compared to a current CPU to render it. Sure factor in lower res and dedicated hardware and that number gets smaller but I doubt it would be anywhere near possible (ok, I'm kind of pulling these numbers out of a hat with no backing whatsoever so don't trust it one bit, its highly theoretical).

To clear a few things up: raytracing/radiosity? Not gonna happen for a long time. Even big movies use lots of tricks and shortcuts and do not calculate accurate lights. One of the first things you learn when doing CGI is how to fake radiosity-like lighting by using multiple light sources at varying intensities around a scene. You know the shiny plastic helmet thingy Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story has? Gues what, it uses a relfetion map like used in games these days not raytraced relfections. One of the first movies to use radiosity was Ice Age and that used a highly optimized (read: inaccurate) algorithm and not for all scenes either. Most of the time if it looks good enough its good enough (why do raytraced reflections when a reflection map looks just as good esp. in a fast moving scene and it renders like a bazillion times faster?). Sure, you can simplify/optimize movies if you want to render them in real time with minimal loss of quality but you will not get quite so substantial speed gains as some people seem to think unless you start removing a lot of polys but then it will be noticeable (some people might be fooled but not those that know what to look for, just like some people think Gollum in LOTR looks real while others do not).

Anyhow, what will be the impact of a 1 TFLOP PS3. Or more precisely: What will be the impact of the PS3 regardless of what real specs it will have? Same as the PS2: it will be amazing when it first comes out and then other next-gen consoles will come out (XB2, GC2) and next-gen PC graphics cards will come out and will start to look dated maybe 6moths-1year down the line. Will it be a cool piece of tech? Sure. Will it change the way we lead our lives and deliver us to graphics utopia as Sony would want us to believe? Nope.

One more thing: A supercomputer in every home! Man, I think that is so funny. We already have supercomputers in our homes if we go by the standards of a few years back. You know the computers they used to get people on the moon? Probably less power than your average scientific calculator these days. Simulations of nuclear explosions/reactions? You could do 'em on any home PC these days if you had the code. Sure, in 5-10 years time you can do the weather simulations and whatever it is they do on supercomputers these days on your PC (or PS3/4) but why on Earth would you want to?
 
Goragoth said:
DISCLAIMER: I'm heavily biased towards PC gaming so take everything with a grain of salt :D

Getting back on topic and away from a hopeless PS2/XBox flame war (I mean c'mon both look crap, really. Poly counts mean nothing when you are playing at low res with horrible 60hz refresh. How can anybody handle that? See, biased, uhh back on topic now...) I think that sony are doing a lot of hype and that is never a good thing. No way they are going to deliver all their promises. So PS2 is 100x the power of the PS1? It sure does not look 100x better. You always get diminishing returns, doubling polys won't make scenes look twice as smooth. Check out ToyStory vs ToyStory2. I would argue that in the scene complexity you can only notice a small difference yet TS2 has twice the poly count of TS. It looks nicer but not twice as nice (at least IMO).

The PS3 will not be able to render FF:TSW in real time. Its nice to dream but it won't happen. By 2005 when the PS3 comes out it will be expected to render to HDTV not current TV resolution, which is still lower than film but already quite high. Offline rendering of FF:TSW would take several hours per frame. Say a frame takes 10 hours to render and we want 60fps that would mean 10*60*60*60 = 129,600,000 that is how many times faster the PS3 CPU would have to be compared to a current CPU to render it. Sure factor in lower res and dedicated hardware and that number gets smaller but I doubt it would be anywhere near possible (ok, I'm kind of pulling these numbers out of a hat with no backing whatsoever so don't trust it one bit, its highly theoretical).

To clear a few things up: raytracing/radiosity? Not gonna happen for a long time. Even big movies use lots of tricks and shortcuts and do not calculate accurate lights. One of the first things you learn when doing CGI is how to fake radiosity-like lighting by using multiple light sources at varying intensities around a scene. You know the shiny plastic helmet thingy Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story has? Gues what, it uses a relfetion map like used in games these days not raytraced relfections. One of the first movies to use radiosity was Ice Age and that used a highly optimized (read: inaccurate) algorithm and not for all scenes either. Most of the time if it looks good enough its good enough (why do raytraced reflections when a reflection map looks just as good esp. in a fast moving scene and it renders like a bazillion times faster?). Sure, you can simplify/optimize movies if you want to render them in real time with minimal loss of quality but you will not get quite so substantial speed gains as some people seem to think unless you start removing a lot of polys but then it will be noticeable (some people might be fooled but not those that know what to look for, just like some people think Gollum in LOTR looks real while others do not).

Anyhow, what will be the impact of a 1 TFLOP PS3. Or more precisely: What will be the impact of the PS3 regardless of what real specs it will have? Same as the PS2: it will be amazing when it first comes out and then other next-gen consoles will come out (XB2, GC2) and next-gen PC graphics cards will come out and will start to look dated maybe 6moths-1year down the line. Will it be a cool piece of tech? Sure. Will it change the way we lead our lives and deliver us to graphics utopia as Sony would want us to believe? Nope.

One more thing: A supercomputer in every home! Man, I think that is so funny. We already have supercomputers in our homes if we go by the standards of a few years back. You know the computers they used to get people on the moon? Probably less power than your average scientific calculator these days. Simulations of nuclear explosions/reactions? You could do 'em on any home PC these days if you had the code. Sure, in 5-10 years time you can do the weather simulations and whatever it is they do on supercomputers these days on your PC (or PS3/4) but why on Earth would you want to?


AGREE with pretty much everything...
but one thing,
i would want a realtime weather simulator which actually works... its would be one of the most useful things i could ever buy.... i wouldnt really need a simulator of nuclear explosions though although it would look great........ :LOL:
 
One more thing: A supercomputer in every home! Man, I think that is so funny. We already have supercomputers in our homes if we go by the standards of a few years back. You know the computers they used to get people on the moon? Probably less power than your average scientific calculator these days. Simulations of nuclear explosions/reactions? You could do 'em on any home PC these days if you had the code. Sure, in 5-10 years time you can do the weather simulations and whatever it is they do on supercomputers these days on your PC (or PS3/4) but why on Earth would you want to?

nice, although the moon landings were decades ago... whereas the ps3 will likely arrive in about 2yrs... with enough power to be ranked up there with todays top supercomputers... If my hunch is right, it might even be in the top 10 supercomputers of that time...

The ps2 is above the announced 100xpsx perf... it is my belief the same "POSSIBLY COULD" hold true for the ps3, IOW it could exceed 1000x the perf of the ps2...
 
zidane1strife said:
One more thing: A supercomputer in every home! Man, I think that is so funny. We already have supercomputers in our homes if we go by the standards of a few years back. You know the computers they used to get people on the moon? Probably less power than your average scientific calculator these days. Simulations of nuclear explosions/reactions? You could do 'em on any home PC these days if you had the code. Sure, in 5-10 years time you can do the weather simulations and whatever it is they do on supercomputers these days on your PC (or PS3/4) but why on Earth would you want to?

nice, although the moon landings were decades ago... whereas the ps3 will likely arrive in about 2yrs... with enough power to be ranked up there with todays top supercomputers... If my hunch is right, it might even be in the top 10 supercomputers of that time...

The ps2 is above the announced 100xpsx perf... it is my belief the same "POSSIBLY COULD" hold true for the ps3, IOW it could exceed 1000x the perf of the ps2...



u know the *setting-your-expectations-low-so-u-will-not-be-majorly-disappointed* thing?
well..... think about it.....
we've been through this countless times......1000x is a little too much.... it will be certainly be more than 100x... but 1000x is stretching it... as much as i hope, i really dont think so....
unless for 1000x u mean 1000x polygon performance, then ok....
but that doesn't mean a game will look 1000x better..... it's just a whole lot of polygons.. :LOL:
 
zidane1strife said:
nice, although the moon landings were decades ago... whereas the ps3 will likely arrive in about 2yrs... with enough power to be ranked up there with todays top supercomputers... If my hunch is right, it might even be in the top 10 supercomputers of that time...

No it wont. Super computers are capability machines, the PS3 will have the capability to run games REALLY WELL, but that's it.

Cheers
Gubbi
 
Gubbi said:
zidane1strife said:
nice, although the moon landings were decades ago... whereas the ps3 will likely arrive in about 2yrs... with enough power to be ranked up there with todays top supercomputers... If my hunch is right, it might even be in the top 10 supercomputers of that time...

No it wont. Super computers are capability machines, the PS3 will have the capability to run games REALLY WELL, but that's it.

Cheers
Gubbi

exactly, because by the time it comes out there will be A LOT of parallel solutions much more powerful than a *simple* videogames console. hell, the could even just throw more CELLs in a chip than there are in the PS3 and there u go.... for what i understand the Cell architecture is very very scalable, so it wont be really hard to do.... just add a few more Cells here and there and u got it... :LOL:
 
zidane1strife said:
Gubbi, u know what I mean... Tflops numbers.



yeah but u dont see Tflops on the screen..... what u see is a bunch of pixels. what goes on in the architecture to come up with some decent looking pixels moving in a respectable way has a lot more to do with Flops performance
 
we've been through this countless times......1000x is a little too much.... it will be certainly be more than 100x... but 1000x is stretching it... as much as i hope, i really dont think so....
unless for 1000x u mean 1000x polygon performance, then ok....
but that doesn't mean a game will look 1000x better..... it's just a whole lot of polygons..

Well, it depends... Rez, IQ, textures, effects, etc... Will all look better, char.s might finally have truly animated clothing, and skin which behaves as if it had muscles underneath, finally we will have grass instead of textures or cheesy looking stick like things. Long Hair will finally resemble something similar to real long hair, and behave like it in the wind.

In reality u might not think those make a significant visual jump, but to me it does... I thought they'd be available, at least in the PC arena by now... but alas it won't be so, just like it took consoles to finally throw decent polys into the table, it will again take consoles to throw the truely impressive pixel effects into the table.
 
zidane1strife said:
we've been through this countless times......1000x is a little too much.... it will be certainly be more than 100x... but 1000x is stretching it... as much as i hope, i really dont think so....
unless for 1000x u mean 1000x polygon performance, then ok....
but that doesn't mean a game will look 1000x better..... it's just a whole lot of polygons..

Well, it depends... Rez, IQ, textures, effects, etc... Will all look better, char.s might finally have truly animated clothing, and skin which behaves as if it had muscles underneath, finally we will have grass instead of textures or cheesy looking stick like things. Long Hair will finally resemble something similar to real long hair, and behave like it in the wind.

In reality u might not think those make a significant visual jump, but to me it does... I thought they'd be available, at least in the PC arena by now... but alas it won't be so, just like it took consoles to finally throw decent polys into the table, it will again take consoles to throw the truely impressive pixel effects into the table.


of course.... OF COURSE u will see all of those things on PS3 and anything else next-gen-related......
still, it doesn't make sense throwing 1000x numbers around... apart from being just unbelievably unrealistic, it doesn't tell anything about the system....
we still can't realize how much more powerful is the xbox compared to the PS2 (2x? 3x? what is it? we'll never know), let alone put a number on PS3-PS2 difference.....
 
still, it doesn't make sense throwing 1000x numbers around... apart from being just unbelievably unrealistic, it doesn't tell anything about the system....

What do you expect Sony to say? No one ever said it will resemble a 1000 times graphics improvement (it's a relative number that each individual might see different).
 
Phil said:
still, it doesn't make sense throwing 1000x numbers around... apart from being just unbelievably unrealistic, it doesn't tell anything about the system....

What do you expect Sony to say? No one ever said it will resemble a 1000 times graphics improvement (it's a relative number that each individual might see different).


WELL u'd expect sony or microsoft or whoever else to throw numbers around...it's perfectly understandable, they're the ones who want to sell the bloody thing... i'm just saying that until the architecture and the specs are fully revealed, it doesn't make sense.....
 
WELL u'd expect sony or microsoft or whoever else to throw numbers around...it's perfectly understandable, they're the ones who want to sell the bloody thing... i'm just saying that until the architecture and the specs are fully revealed, it doesn't make sense.....

Why doesn't it make sense? Because you don't know how far Sony is upon finalizing the hardware? it's quite logical that Sony wouldn't release solid information on a succesor anytime soon, since PS2 is just about halfway through its lifecycle - but what if they are aiming for a 1000x polygon improvement and are confident that they will reach their goal at given time? Who are you to blame them that "it doesn't make sense" or "unbelievable unrealistic". Before Sony release those details, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt, but look forward to what may be coming. Right now, the 1000x improvement could be anything from polygon output to final total floating point performance. Only Sony knows this and I'm sure they have a reason for stating that number (besides hype). Cheer up, no one is claiming that it will be the best thing since whatever - it's only a number that lets us assume what technical improvement we're going to have. ;)
 
Phil said:
WELL u'd expect sony or microsoft or whoever else to throw numbers around...it's perfectly understandable, they're the ones who want to sell the bloody thing... i'm just saying that until the architecture and the specs are fully revealed, it doesn't make sense.....

Why doesn't it make sense? Because you don't know how far Sony is upon finalizing the hardware? it's quite logical that Sony wouldn't release solid information on a succesor anytime soon, since PS2 is just about halfway through its lifecycle - but what if they are aiming for a 1000x polygon improvement and are confident that they will reach their goal at given time? Who are you to blame them that "it doesn't make sense" or "unbelievable unrealistic". Before Sony release those details, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt, but look forward to what may be coming. Right now, the 1000x improvement could be anything from polygon output to final total floating point performance. Only Sony knows this and I'm sure they have a reason for stating that number (besides hype). Cheer up, no one is claiming that it will be the best thing since whatever - it's only a number that lets us assume what technical improvement we're going to have. ;)


i know i see your point, all i'm saying is that it would be more fun to speculate on, let's say, possible features than over *oooh it will be 1000x more powerful* and *nah it's more like 589X more powerful* etc etc....

u know what i mean?!

lets speculate on the features, on how it could cope rendering the 60.000 single hairs on Aki's head, on things like that.. at least i can imagine something concrete..... :LOL: :LOL:
 
BTW: some thoughts; how many months does it take to double graphics performance? If a company is able to double, lets say polygon performance, every 6 months - over a period of 5 years, you'll see a 1000+ times increase.

1000 times improvement does sound mighty impressive - if you think about it though, you only have to double a number 10 times to reach that number. (2^10 = 1024) Not that impressive anymore, ain't it? ;)
 
I think that in certain scenarios ( coming with like 200-300x the raw specs ), the "effective" performance will be close to 1,000x, not the theoretical max numbers...

Think about long and complex pixel and vertex shaders plus complex AI ( and I mean it ) and physics ( which use more parallel algorithms ), high-resolution textures, etc...

PS2 would slow down to a crawl under those conditions...
 
Panajev2001a said:
I think that in certain scenarios ( coming with like 200-300x the raw specs ), the "effective" performance will be close to 1,000x, not the theoretical max numbers...

Think about long and complex pixel and vertex shaders plus complex AI ( and I mean it ) and physics ( which use more parallel algorithms ), high-resolution textures, etc...

PS2 would slow down to a crawl under those conditions...


certainly it would, thats why i said, it's much better talking about what features it will have and how fast it will be at handling them.....
i mean, just thinking about the difference between MGS and MGS2 makes u think about how gorgeous the next gen games will look (not only PS3)... or the difference between GT and GT3 (which is a first gen title after all).... or Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy X... i mean, FFX looks better than some FMV cut scenes in FF7 at times..... can u believe playing a game that looks better than the FMV in FFX??????? jesus i can't wait...
 
Goragoth said:
I think that sony are doing a lot of hype and that is never a good thing.

Sony is doing no hyping at all. Where do people get this shit from?

This forum is suppose to be centered around a technical-based discussion on the 3D and related technologies in Consoles. Thats what we're doing, it's no diffrent than the people piecing together the Nv40 or R400 architectures - So please stop talking.

No way they are going to deliver all their promises. So PS2 is 100x the power of the PS1? It sure does not look 100x better.

Have you even played a PSOne game lately? Compare a SilentHill3, ZoE2, MGS2, FFx, to anything on Playstation. You've got to be kidding me as the jump in techical ability is not only enormous, but as is the visual jump.

You always get diminishing returns, doubling polys won't make scenes look twice as smooth. Check out ToyStory vs ToyStory2. I would argue that in the scene complexity you can only notice a small difference yet TS2 has twice the poly count of TS. It looks nicer but not twice as nice (at least IMO).

You're right, it's IYHO. And it's wrong, compare a FF:TSW to a ToyStory. Toystory has a distinct look that must be maintained with the games, look at FF:TSW to see the visual increase.

The PS3 will not be able to render FF:TSW in real time. Its nice to dream but it won't happen.

The GSCube can, the GeForce3 (Nv20 core) can run a cut down version - PS3 will be damn close. Perhaps not the same in raw sampling rates, but visually close.

By 2005 when the PS3 comes out it will be expected to render to HDTV not current TV resolution, which is still lower than film but already quite high. Offline rendering of FF:TSW would take several hours per frame. Say a frame takes 10 hours to render and we want 60fps that would mean 10*60*60*60 = 129,600,000 that is how many times faster the PS3 CPU would have to be compared to a current CPU to render it.

You're comparing a Renderfarm made up of x86 like CPUs to specilized ICs. A renderfarm of NV30s perhaps just a fraction of the size of the CPU renderfarm could surpass the CPU one.

As Ben has, on many occasions, showed that a fully software rasterization process is several, several orders of magnitude slower than an ASIC designed for it. Infact, something like Bilinear filtering which a G/VPU can do per cycle thanks to concurrency would rape a CPU in terms of effeciency,

Your comparason is horrible, I expect the NV4x and 5x series to be able to do it - at close visual levels with lesser sampling - aswell.

ok, I'm kind of pulling these numbers out of a hat with no backing whatsoever so don't trust it one bit, its highly theoretical.

Yes, Yes you are. And No, It's not theoretical as Ben can explain.

To clear a few things up: raytracing/radiosity? Not gonna happen for a long time.

I predict forms of Raytracing will be used in the near future.

Even big movies use lots of tricks and shortcuts and do not calculate accurate lights. One of the first things you learn when doing CGI is how to fake radiosity-like lighting by using multiple light sources at varying intensities around a scene. You know the shiny plastic helmet thingy Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story has? Gues what, it uses a relfetion map like used in games these days not raytraced relfections. One of the first movies to use radiosity was Ice Age and that used a highly optimized (read: inaccurate) algorithm and not for all scenes either. Most of the time if it looks good enough its good enough (why do raytraced reflections when a reflection map looks just as good esp. in a fast moving scene and it renders like a bazillion times faster?). Sure, you can simplify/optimize movies if you want to render them in real time with minimal loss of quality but you will not get quite so substantial speed gains as some people seem to think unless you start removing a lot of polys but then it will be noticeable (some people might be fooled but not those that know what to look for, just like some people think Gollum in LOTR looks real while others do not).

Um, I suppose you NEED fully accurate lighting on a console.... :rolleyes: I think the same tricks and more are applied in RT gaming. This point is irrelevent.

One more thing: A supercomputer in every home! Man, I think that is so funny. We already have supercomputers in our homes if we go by the standards of a few years back. You know the computers they used to get people on the moon? Probably less power than your average scientific calculator these days. Simulations of nuclear explosions/reactions? You could do 'em on any home PC these days if you had the code. Sure, in 5-10 years time you can do the weather simulations and whatever it is they do on supercomputers these days on your PC (or PS3/4) but why on Earth would you want to?

(a) No, you can't do ASCI-series nuclear calculations on a desktop like the DoE does. Where do you get this?

(b) Moore's Law explains what they mean by this. The Apollo -> Calculator example is flawed as: (1) It tooks years for that power to double, not so in this case [<1.5 years] (2) NASA never uses cutting edge technology as per their radiation "hardening" requirements which mandate the entire architecxture be turned over to NASA [as Intel just tuned over the PentiumMMX]

(c) Accurate weather simulation? Yeah right, where do you get this? As Lorenz entitled his paper: Predictability: Does the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings in Brazil Set Off a Tornado in Texas? If you think we'll be doing precise weather prob on a desktop in 5 years, then there's no way PS3 won't be doing full radiosity. So inconsistent.

Thus.... yeah.
 
raytracing ? WTF for,please (no offense)...
still,futur physics open wide gameplay possibilities,well outside simply trying to simulate or copy reality (withch is boring)
 
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