How can Sony further cost reduce the entry-level PS3? *spawn

[Rolf N]

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/03/10/ps3_model_change/

A retailer is reporting today that Sony will be giving the PlayStation 3 a slight weight reduction from its current 3.2kg to 3.0kg. This will be accompanied by a change in model number from CECH-2000A to CECH-2100A.

Could be a die shrink to the RSX. What else could cause a 200g discrepancy?

Power supply is the single heaviest section of anything. Transformers with iron cores, big high-current chokes made from copper wire as thick as your arm, that sort of thing.

Heatsinks next. Fans can be heavy too.

 

[corduroygt]

After the power/cooling components, it could also be the blu-ray drive. Or they've gone back to sixaxis from dualshock

 

[Crossbar]

Don´t know how this slipped under our radar.

In December last year Samsung announced it would start production of 1 GBit XDR DRAM with 32 bit data interface just like Elpida announced in the beginning of 2009.

Here you can see feature comparison with their old 512 Mbit chip. Pretty impressive that the chip is speced up to 4.8 Gbps, that is even higher than the Elpida version.

The reason why I googled this was because I thought that Sony would like to have a second source before putting this in the PS3. I think the 1 Gbit chip will very likely be in the new SKUs that have been registered in the US. I am really curious to get pictures of the PCB of these new SKUs because I expect them to have the new version of the RSX (45 nm) as well and I don´t exclude the possibility that they actually replaced the DDR3 of the RSX with these new XDR chips as it would reduce ship count and heat generation.

Hopefully the PS3 supply issues in the US are caused partly becuse there are new SKUs coming, so we get to see it soon.

 

[Rolf N]

<...>
I don´t exclude the possibility that they actually replaced the DDR3 of the RSX with these new XDR chips as it would reduce ship count and heat generation.

Is that actually possible? I know we've talked before about the option to drop in GDDR5 chips at twice the clock and half the bus width, but XDR? Are the protocols compatible, or would that be a redesign of RSX's memory controller?

 

[Crossbar]

Is that actually possible? I know we've talked before about the option to drop in GDDR5 chips at twice the clock and half the bus width, but XDR? Are the protocols compatible, or would that be a redesign of RSX's memory controller?

Yeah, it would require a redesign of the memory controller of the RSX. That will be an extra cost added to the die shrink, but it may be worth it in the long run if you can reduce chip count and heat dissipation.

Having the just one type of memory would also help getting higher order volumes which is good when negotiating the price with manufacturers.

 

[NathansFortune]

Power supply is the single heaviest section of anything. Transformers with iron cores, big high-current chokes made from copper wire as thick as your arm, that sort of thing.

Heatsinks next. Fans can be heavy too.

Yes that's what I was getting at. Obviously the 200g discrepancy isn't going to come from a tiny bit of silicon getting slightly more tiny! It would be the PSU and cooling requirements decreasing which could be the cause of the weight reduction.

 

[NeoTechni]

There would be no point selling a console that can't play games for said console. Without its HDD...PS3 games will not play

No, without a harddrive, PS3 won't boot. They cut costs by removing flash for the firmware and storing it on the HDD.

For the people living in the stone age, they can sell an adapter that converts HDMI to analog for extra cost.

That would be very expensive!

If they were going to abandon a port, HDMI would go. The multiAV is required by more, and supports HD.

This would mean you couldnt use a Monitor through DVI either... atleast not with sound. (My Samsung has an HDMI Port but HDCP is only supported on DVI )

Yres you could. I use myPS3 on my monitor on DVI via the HDMI port

 

[Danalys]

Shouldn't it just be the case that they can get it down to the cost of the original Xbox eventually. I remember that MS just couldn't cost reduce that any more, and blamed the hard disk for the extra cost over the PS2. I think part of the over engineering of the PS3 and high initial price was to extend it's life cycle, especially in the profitable part of it for them. This device they market as a premium product eventually cost reduces to closer to the 360s price and looks more of a bargain, while they are losing less or gaining on every unit sold. I guess it really comes down to the ability to cost reduce the Blu-ray drive. DVD being mature tech didn't have room to cost reduce much, but Blu-ray while being a major up front additional cost does; Much more than the extra silicon of any chips I'd think but I'm not an expert on such.

I think it is important to them to reach a certain level of profitability before reaching a certain mass market price. Sales of PS1 and PS2 doubled over the previous year when they hit certain prices.

 

[NathansFortune]

Shouldn't it just be the case that they can get it down to the cost of the original Xbox eventually. I remember that MS just couldn't cost reduce that any more, and blamed the hard disk for the extra cost over the PS2. I think part of the over engineering of the PS3 and high initial price was to extend it's life cycle, especially in the profitable part of it for them. This device they market as a premium product eventually cost reduces to closer to the 360s price and looks more of a bargain, while they are losing less or gaining on every unit sold. I guess it really comes down to the ability to cost reduce the Blu-ray drive. DVD being mature tech didn't have room to cost reduce much, but Blu-ray while being a major up front additional cost does; Much more than the extra silicon of any chips I'd think but I'm not an expert on such.

I think it is important to them to reach a certain level of profitability before reaching a certain mass market price. Sales of PS1 and PS2 doubled over the previous year when they hit certain prices.

Cost of an OEM Blu-ray drive is not a lot more than a DVD drive, the licensing costs are higher, but it's less than $10 between them now.

The whole thread is about SCE looking at SSDs replacing HDs to reduce the cost in the long term. It's a bit like Blu-ray, high short term cost but massive long term cost reductions. NAND always decreases in price for the same amount, it's about doing it at the right time and including the right amount.

 

[Toaddio]

I accidentally posted my thoughts in the thread about using SSDs for content delivery but....

Couldn't Sony implement a ~20GB built in flash drive with an empty hard drive expansion bay for future growth? Is there a game that requires more than 20GB of install? Could they possibly use even less?

Just figure out which game requires the most install space and update their SDK so no future game could use more, then make the system with enough space after that.

Sorry if this has been discussed.

 

[Danalys]

Cost of an OEM Blu-ray drive is not a lot more than a DVD drive, the licensing costs are higher, but it's less than $10 between them now.

The whole thread is about SCE looking at SSDs replacing HDs to reduce the cost in the long term. It's a bit like Blu-ray, high short term cost but massive long term cost reductions. NAND always decreases in price for the same amount, it's about doing it at the right time and including the right amount.

Well since the SSD doesn't provide an advantage until it is more cost effective they'll just wait until it makes sense cost wise. Including weight saved for shipping.

 

[cal_guy]

Cost of an OEM Blu-ray drive is not a lot more than a DVD drive, the licensing costs are higher, but it's less than $10 between them now.

The whole thread is about SCE looking at SSDs replacing HDs to reduce the cost in the long term. It's a bit like Blu-ray, high short term cost but massive long term cost reductions. NAND always decreases in price for the same amount, it's about doing it at the right time and including the right amount.

The isuppli BOM report on the PS3 slim pegged the Blu-ray drive at approximately $66(down from approximately $125 at launch) while the Xbox 360 DVD drive cost $19 in 2008. Blu-ray still a far way from matching the price of an DVD-ROM.

 

[Crossbar]

The isuppli BOM report on the PS3 slim pegged the Blu-ray drive at approximately $66(down from approximately $125 at launch) while the Xbox 360 DVD drive cost $19 in 2008. Blu-ray still a far way from matching the price of an DVD-ROM.

Don´t pay to much attention to the iSupply analysis, they have had strange numbers before.

Sony also has their own manufacturing plants for optical drives so their internal price may very different to the "street" price.

 

[cal_guy]

Don´t pay to much attention to the iSupply analysis, they have had strange numbers before.

Sony also has their own manufacturing plants for optical drives so their internal price may very different to the "street" price.

That means however that Sony is forgoing profit by allocating blu-ray parts for the PS3 instead of selling to the market.

 

[NathansFortune]

The isuppli BOM report on the PS3 slim pegged the Blu-ray drive at approximately $66(down from approximately $125 at launch) while the Xbox 360 DVD drive cost $19 in 2008. Blu-ray still a far way from matching the price of an DVD-ROM.

Blue-Violet laser diodes aren't anywhere near that expensive anymore (especially low power 2x ones), it's better not to pay attention to iSuppli when possible.

As for opportunity costs of Sony using Blu-ray drives rather than selling them, there isn't much of a market for 13m Blu-ray drives unless they are sold below cost.

 

[Rolf N]

The isuppli BOM report on the PS3 slim pegged the Blu-ray drive at approximately $66(down from approximately $125 at launch) while the Xbox 360 DVD drive cost $19 in 2008. Blu-ray still a far way from matching the price of an DVD-ROM.

When consumers can buy a combo 4x BD-ROM/8x DVD rewriter for 58$, any cost estimate above 50$, for a 2x pure BD-ROM produced internally, in bulk, with a custom (non-)shell no less, is automatically invalid.

 

[Crossbar]

That means however that Sony is forgoing profit by allocating blu-ray parts for the PS3 instead of selling to the market.

Big deal forgoing profit is not exactly the same thing as taking a loss. And do you really think that the BDD price would remain the same if Sony flooded the market with 13 million more BDD units?

Anyway the BDD price found by Rolf efficiently invalidates the iSupply numbers so yes the BDD carries a price premium over the DVD, but it is not that big anymore and it is getting smaller for each year that passes, just as expected. Give it a couple more years and the difference will likely be in the single digit $ range.

 

[corduroygt]

When consumers can buy a combo 4x BD-ROM/8x DVD rewriter for 58$, any cost estimate above 50$, for a 2x pure BD-ROM produced internally, in bulk, with a custom (non-)shell no less, is automatically invalid.

But but but slim drives sell for $150 so it must cost Sony that much to make them
Just as preposterous as thinking anyone besides Intel can make 32nm chips this year, when the GF100/HD58xx situation makes it obvious that even 40nm is a challenge for TSMC.

 

[Mr. Domino]

Apparently, Sony's finally making money off the hardware:

Consumers should get used to a $299 PlayStation 3 for the time being.

In an interview with IGN, Shuhei Yoshida, president of Sony's Worldwide Studios, said the company is finally making money on every PS3 sold and there's no rush to bring the price down again.

"This year is the first time that we are able to cover the cost of the PlayStation 3," Yoshida said. "We aren't making huge money from hardware, but we aren't bleeding like we used to."

In May, Sony began shipping new PlayStation 3 consoles with smaller and more cost effective graphics chips. Now, Yoshida said, Sony is looking at replenishing retail stock that has been running on empty since January rather than cutting the price.

"When we bring the cost of hardware down, we are looking at opportunities to adjust prices if we believe that will increase demand," he explained. "At the moment, we are trying to catch up our production."

"We have lots of great games coming out and innovations with Move and 3DTV, so we don't believe this is the time for us to think about a price drop," he added.

Rather than cutting the price of the base model, Yoshida said the company may look at doing additional console bundles, like the one recently announced that will include Sports Champion, a PlayStation Move controller, and a PlayStation Eye for $399.]

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/110/1102449p1.html

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Hmmm, seems neither console maker wants to reduce prices any farther. So I doubt we're going to see any price cuts this year unless one console starts to rapidly outsell the other. I don't see that happening however.

Regards,
SB