Sony PS3 Q+A (Leaked)

[patsu]

Yes, pre-install Linux on PS3 will have all these consequences and more...
* Space wastage if users don't (know how to) use Linux
* Keeping Linux up to date to prevent break-ins, defacement of personal website, ...
* Housekeeping of Linux (Log files and such)
* Procedure for handling intrusion (could be as simple as re-install)
* Provider customer support when there are problems related to Linux

I have no official answers, again just guesses. It seems that there are only 2 possibilities ? Any in-betweens may cause confusion.

* User take full responsibility:
Make Linux installation optional (free or otherwise). You have to take care of the environment yourself. But there may be third party support service (e.g., from Yellow Dog) you can subscribe to to keep it up to date. Sony may not care which support services/distro you get your services from.

* Sony take full responsibility:
Sony or an appointed third party (Yellow Dog again since they have apparently done it with Mercury) is in charge of keeping the Linux OS up-tp-date. Some optional PS3 apps may require components from the Linux environment (to improve time to market and lessen development cost).
(i) Sony (or Linux company) may charge users for the use of these apps and use part of the $$$ for keeping the Linux environment sane, or
(ii) Like Apple with MacOS X, Sony/Yellow Dog may charge users for the OS environment (with free apps) to cover for the overhead.

Risk of intrusion via http, smtp, ftp, ... would be covered under (i) or (ii) the same way httpd, sendmail, ftpd exist on Mac OS X.

 

[DeanA]

That's very good news! So straight out the gate there should be useable applications on PS3 Linux.

I'm kind of late to the party on this (sorry about that.. busy, don't you know), but I wouldn't bet on native PPC/Linux apps to just run on PS3 Linux. I believe there are differences in ABI (some subtle, some not so subtle), and CELL has been assigned a different machine id within the ELF object format.

While I have no confirmed information on this, my guess is that applications would need to be built on a Sony-supplied PPU version of GCC, much like we have available as part of the PS3 SDK.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[patsu]

Ok, are the differences significant enough to require code changes to the open source packages, or just a recompile ?

 

[DeanA]

Ok, are the differences significant enough to require code changes to the open source packages, or just a recompile ?

I'd expect a recompile would be all that's needed, assuming that the package compiled cleanly with the version of GCC that would be shipped. I'd guess on a 4.x version of GCC based on what we have at the moment for title development, but whether that's 4.0.2 or 4.1 is something I just don't know.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[Titanio]

If all that was required was a re-build, that'd be no biggie.

But my question would be for closed-source apps releasing a Linux/PPC version (like Opera), could they accomodate Cell in those versions for PS3 too going forward, or would they have to provide a different (recompiled) version just for PS3?

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Ram

I think you have to look at the 256 mb of system ram, not the other 256 of video ram, when you are talking about linux for the ps3. It's not 512 uma like the x360.

I agree my friend, this is why I like 512MB for PS3 but I think spec is already "fixed".

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I agree my friend, this is why I like 512MB for PS3 but I think spec is already "fixed".

Which is why they've said that they'd be more than happy to sell you a PS3 with 512MB or 1GB of XDR if that's what you want.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

More RAM

Which is why they've said that they'd be more than happy to sell you a PS3 with 512MB or 1GB of XDR if that's what you want.

That's great news for me, thank you for this information my friend. I will like 1 GB XDR.

 

[SPM]

If all that was required was a re-build, that'd be no biggie. But my question would be for closed-source apps releasing a Linux/PPC version (like Opera), could they accomodate Cell in those versions for PS3 too going forward, or would they have to provide a different (recompiled) version just for PS3?

If the application simply interfaces with the standard APIs, (and if as claimed PPC executable code will run on the PPE), then it should run with no problems.

If Sony adopts a version of Linux however, it will be a very major distro in terms of market share, and vendors are likely to provide optimised compiled versions for the PS3. As for media players, I would expect Sony might provide SPE accelerated versions with licensed codecs.

 

[compres]

If they make upgrades easy I might even consider buying one and upgrading it's ram later. However i very much doubt it.

Also, how good would it performance be on regular software(not games) since cell does not have OOE?

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

If they make upgrades easy I might even consider buying one and upgrading it's ram later. However i very much doubt it.

No. They haven't said a thing about upgrades, other than the whole 'its a computer so you can use USB ports/hubs etc, and that you can upgrade the HDD yourself' stuff.

I highly doubt that you will be able to unscrew the case and swap in/out XDR. Which is why they said you could order custom versions of the PS3 with more ram.

Anybody seriously interested in developing on the PS3 who discovers they need more XDR most likely won't have a problem selling their old PS3 once their new custom ordered one arrives.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Also, how good would it performance be on regular software(not games) since cell does not have OOE?

That depends on what you mean by regular software and also how optimized it is. Regular software encompasses thing Cell would be great out, like media playback, and productivity stuff like word processing, which Cell won't be great at but then, in that particular example, it wouldn't need to be. In most human driven software the application is sitting idle 95% of the time. Cell may be slower at spellchecking and the like, but I don't expect it would be painfully so. Then there will be other applications where it's not so hot, like relation databases I think. From where I'm sitting, based on my use, audio playback, web surfing, graphics apps, the 3.2 GHz PPE should be equivalent to current use on suitably optimized code. If you throw a rough and ready source onto it, expect major slowdowns.

 

[SPM]

I don't think the end result in computer functionality with ps2 is quite what people were expecting but then maybe I had my hopes too high. Were you satisfied with ps2 computer functionality? Aside from the ram limitations, what was "hinted at" or "sold" by Sony to the masses on the subject was clearly short of what was delivered. That could change here with ps3 but I'm not holding my breath in anticipation.

Sony never really pushed the PS2 Linux kit as anything more than something for geeks who want to experiment with programming on the PS2 hardware, and they did meet this goal. If you ever went onto Sony's moderated PS2 Linux forum, the moderators medy this crystal clear from the start. The idea of Linux on the PS2 was to encourage possible future PS2 programmers to get hands on experience on the PS2 without paying huge sums of money for the dev kits. The limited RAM was a problem for anything other than experimenting with the system.

Part of the hype is the press and media rather than Sony (although Sony knows how to make skillful use of this), you announce something vague, and you have all sorts of theories, rumours, and machinations - like we have here. In this case Sony has made the hardware and the fact that it will run a full featured Linux OS very clear, and running the PS3 as a computer with Linux to perfectly feasible and practical. If Sony changes it's mind that is another thing, but the possibility of a PS3 computer is perfectly practical and not hype.

The only drawback in allowing a full OS on a console is the fact that it would make it easier to bypass Sony's cut in royalties from games. With the PS2, with 32MB RAM nobody in their right mind would write games to run under Linux because that wouldn't leave much RAM for the game. On the PS3, Sony has a DRMed hypervisor to prevent Linux apps usurping the system, but I would still expect Sony to do something to make it much less desirable to run games under Linux - eg. making the PPE and only two or three SPEs available. However this would still be fine for PC type applications since this will easily outgun a PC for floating point power.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

On the PS3, Sony has a DRMed hypervisor to prevent Linux apps usurping the system, but I would still expect Sony to do something to make it much less desirable to run games under Linux .

Is this really a problem though? Do homebrew PC games cut into sales of 'real' games? It may be that PS3 games will sell just as well as ever, as Linux Tetris and Balderdash Clone XXIII aren't in the same league, and homebrew never will be because of the sheer costs in making high quality games.

 

[SPM]

If they make upgrades easy I might even consider buying one and upgrading it's ram later. However i very much doubt it.

Also, how good would it performance be on regular software(not games) since cell does not have OOE?

The RAM probably won't be upgradable if and until Sony decides to release a media PC version of the PS3 (which could be never). However 256MB RAM should be fine for typical home use.

If you want more power, you can get a PC connected by a LAN, load Linux on it, install an NX client and FreeNX server, and run applications on the PC which are displayed on the PS3. Because Linux is multi-user, including the display, You can do this while someone else is using the PC without interfering with anything.

 

[patsu]

I always thought "the other way round" is more interesting. i.e., The PC is a client while PS3 is a server for specialized/dedicated services like converting my DVD to PSP format. It takes hours and I don't want to tie up my laptop for it. Not to mention Cell should be able to do it faster than a regular CPU. Whether Sony will allow this to happen is a separate question though.

The home server can have a simple but clean web interface for management purposes. I should be able to use it like a regular Linux (via ssh, VNC, ...) without being stucked at the living room. DLNA and other network protocols would also alleviate some of the hardware limitations (e.g., hard disk size).

At this point, Scooby's question is very valid: How does Sony intends to sustain PS3 Linux ?

 

[SPM]

Is this really a problem though? Do homebrew PC games cut into sales of 'real' games? It may be that PS3 games will sell just as well as ever, as Linux Tetris and Balderdash Clone XXIII aren't in the same league, and homebrew never will be because of the sheer costs in making high quality games.

If Sony put in loads of RAM and allowed you to use all six available SPEs, then developers might start developing quality games to run under PS3 Linux. Why not? They do it on the PC, and if Sony doesn't get a cut, then the developer gets more.

It is also a possible that the OpenGL libraries might be slowed down under Linux, because the PPE and RSX are a decent combination. Again this is not going to be a problem for non-games applications.

Sony won't mind Tetris or Lemmings running on Linux, and it won't take very much of a performance penalty, and Sony's copy protection to persuade developers to shift quality games to the PS3 proper.

It would be great if Sony was confident that it's DRM copy protection alone would be enough to persuade games developers to release quality games under PS3, and so would not restrict the hardware at all under Linux, but Sony is subsidising the PS3 and games console manufacturers don't think that way, so I don't think that will happen.

 

[patsu]

Yeah, perhaps this is why Ken Kutaragi rationalized in one of the interviews that Sony may make money off the machine as a standalone business. I was intrigued by that statement.

That way... you can use PS3 (and the installed Linux) however you want it because you basically paid for the entire package. The current game business will continue and provide further upside to Sony.

Lot's of tough decisions in the face of stronger competitions.

 

[GregLee]

... I wouldn't bet on native PPC/Linux apps to just run on PS3 Linux....

Much of this discussion assumes that the Linux supplied with the PS3 will be some version of the Linux kernel developed by IBM for the Cell. How do we know that? From the comments about the PS3 running operating systems as applications, I've been thinking in terms of a Linux running SPE code, with the Sony hypervisor running in the PPE and providing access to the display and other hardware to Linux through subroutine calls. Couldn't it be done that way? If it were, the user Linux might turn out to be much less capable. It might not even be able to do graphic output to the screen.

 

[SPM]

I always thought "the other way round" is more interesting. i.e., The PC is a client while PS3 is a server for specialized/dedicated services like converting my DVD to PSP format. It takes hours and I don't want to tie up my laptop for it. Not to mention Cell should be able to do it faster than a regular CPU. Whether Sony will allow this to happen is a separate question though.

The home server can have a simple but clean web interface for management purposes. I should be able to use it like a regular Linux (via ssh, VNC, ...) without being stucked at the living room. DLNA and other network protocols would also alleviate some of the hardware limitations (e.g., hard disk size).

At this point, Scooby's question is very valid: How does Sony intends to sustain PS3 Linux ?

You can do it the other way around of course or both ways, but when someone is playing a game on the PS3, you would need to shut down Linux on the PS3 to get enough resources to run the game, so you would lose your connection. If this isn't a problem then you can do that. Stuff you run on the Linux PC will always run uninterrupted so long as you don't switch the PC off.

I don't know what DLNA looks like, but with ssh, you have to configure X forwarding on ssh, and on the command line you just type
ssh user1@computer1 app
to run the application app logged in as user1 on the computer with hostname or IP address computer1
The graphical application will appear in a window on the local machine.

With the NX client, you get a window with a complete remote desktop in it. Incidentally NX clients are available for Windows PCs.

Sony doesn't need to sustain PS3 Linux. Linux distros sustain themselves. If Sony licenses a good commercial desktop distro which is maintained by others like Novell/SuSE, Linspire, Xandros etc. then a port to the PS3 would be maintained in line with the other ports including online security patches and updates. Sony wouldn't have to do anything, except maybe provide Cell enhanced media applications and developer toolkits.

Sony could also supply a free distro, but these tend to be poor on codecs and DMCA protected apps like DVD players, because of legal restrictions on distributing these freely, and not as nicely integrated.