MS stuck in the middle?

[Brimstone]

Yeah, I know.. we have to see how that pans out.
But then Sony fixed a deal with FIFA to be one of the offical sponsors between 2007-2012 (or something like that) so Sony might have "one up:ed" MS..

But yeah, Im familiar with the deal MS has with FIFA/Adidas/EA...

Yeah the Sony deal sponsorship is one of the biggest ever. Something like $300 million dollars. It makes a lot of sense for Sony because they are more than just game consoles, also TV's, CELL phones, and such.

 

[Spidermate]

Okey, Some thoughts after GDC.

Is it just me or does MS seem to be kinda stuck in the middle between Sony and Nintendo? That both Sony and NIntendo are kind of squeezing MS from both sides?

For example..
*Sony are doing a good job of taking away MS "aces". Sonys online seems to offer the same functions as XBoxLive but free.

*Sony will have a HDD in every machine.

So by looking at this, Sony will offer stuff that MS "dosen´t". By having a HDD in every machine, devs can count on it. On 360, devs cannot.
Sonys machine seems to be able of pushing more advanced physics but the overall power of PS3 will not be that much greater than Xbox360 (based on devs comments)

Nintendo on the other hand..
THey will also offer free onlineplay with Rev (why would it change from their NDS strategy). But the main reason Rev is gathering attention is for the Rev-mote. Nintendo might be able to offer something new with this. Rev, as I see it, is in the best position of the 3 of becoming the best "Second console" after PS3 or 360.

WHat MS must count on now is to have the best exclusives around. If MS cannot secure AAA exclusives, then PS3 will definatly sell better than 360 and Rev might be up there aswell.

So, what I think MS must do to are the following:
1. Lower the price on both Premium and Core as soon as possible.
-Why would some have to do that, they are the only next gen on the market, no need to lower the price, right? I think that MS should lower the price on both SO THAT they can amass the best salesfigures possible before PS3 arrives. The whole purpose of being first on market was to have the biggest lead possible to the competition. In the US, sales are healthy but in EU (and in Japan), there are machines available and sales are not as good as in the states. By lowering the price now and have a marketing push, they could boost their sales.

MS should try to focus on selling as much as possible before PS3 lands. IIRC, Sony will try and produce 6 million by November. This might mean 2 million on each market at launch. We saw with PS2 that Sony didn´t have any problem of selling 1 million in 2 days. Now the hype is even bigger. 6 million should be sold in a week, easily. (If Sony is able to produce the 6 million units). It dosen´t matter, Sony will be able to sell lots of machine really fast and thus narrowing the gap to MS and 360. So MS must concentrate on selling as many as possible as soon as possible. $299 for premium and $199 for core.

2. Upgrade both SKUs.
-I don´t get MS. The thing with each generation is that you ADD more hardware from existing, not removing. The removal of the HDD was a mistake, devs could do more with the HDD. Sony is having one in every machine now and this combined with Blu-ray and the extra power, could help Sony secure more exclusive content. Besides, Sony will have a 60GB HDD in their machine, MS cannot be worse with only 20GB.

So, I think that MS must upgrade the Premium SKU with a 60GB HDD and the Core with a 20GB HDD. AT the same time, MS should release 80GBs (or 100, 120 GB HDDs) as add ons. This way, MS still gives people choice but every machine haves a HDD. THose who bought a core-pack now, must be compensated with a HDD. MS did a compensation program with Xbox here in EU, so MS have a history of compensating, so this shouldn´t be a problem. BUT it is important for MS to also have a HDD in every machine, this way, Sony will not have as many exclusive features on their machine and this way, thirdparty devs can count on a HDD on both PS3 and 360. (This would mean that a premium SKU with 60GB HDD would cost 299 dollars, taking my first point into account)

MS have said, even Scott Henson said (the recently interviewed guy on Kotaku) that MS have their strategy and that it dosen´t matter what the competitors do. Well, a real strategist would react to what the competitors are doing and move accordingly. MS needs to react to what the competition are doing and respond.

The thing that maybe bothers me the most is that Sony are willing to invest and take a huge loss on their machine but by doing this, they will have some sweet tech and Sony are broke compaired to MS.

MS, has a ton of money, but don´t invest as much as the poorer competitor does. MS needs to move some of their 40+ billion dollars towards 360, make some interesting buy-ups, secure games, price reductions etc etc.

MS needs to be more aggressive and more aggressive soon.

(sorry for misspellings, grammatical errors etc)

One thing you and others seem to miss is Sony being a hardware supplier and Microsoft not. What Sony can take a small lost on, Microsoft may not, and the same goes vice-versa. I'm not going to say a 60 gigabyte harddrive is impossible, but if Microsoft thought a 20GB harddrive was a fair reason to justifying the price of a Xbox 360, I would really hate to see them triple that as an add-on.

 

[Powderkeg]

One thing you and others seem to miss is Sony being a hardware supplier and Microsoft not. What Sony can take a small lost on, Microsoft may not, and the same goes vice-versa. I'm not going to say a 60 gigabyte harddrive is impossible, but if Microsoft thought a 20GB harddrive was a fair reason to justifying the price of a Xbox 360, I would really hate to see them triple that as an add-on.

Or, as an alternative, MS is doing what it always does and is waging an economic war against Sony.

MS now has a relatively cheap console to produce, and an accessory setup that allows the system to turn profits very quickly. And with the Core SKU, they've got a system that is a minimum f $125 cheaper than the PS3.

They've also got a very good game lineup going now, will have a decent sized library, and will be releasing 2nd gen titles by the time the PS3 launches.

Sony on the other hand seems to be following in the footsteps of the original Xbox. Very expensive to manufacture, so much so that they will need to release it at $125 higher price tag than the 360 Core SKU. Sony may sell more, but that may come back to bite them in the ass when they lose billions of dollars thanks to the high cost of the hardware.


And let us not forget that historically most consoles are sold when they drop below the $200 price range. Clearly MS will be able to hit that price mark long before Sony can afford to.

MS doesn't need to match the PS3 features. They can just plug along doing exactly what they've planned to do and they'll make a profit while Sony,,,,,,,,,, we'll have to wait and see how they do.

 

[mckmas8808]

ok ok...
The whole "is HDD standard or note debacle" isn´t decided yet (I still think its all semantics but we have to see at E3 about the HDD thing)

I'm not sure if they will even say at E3. We might have to wait until TGS

 

[Spidermate]

Or, as an alternative, MS is doing what it always does and is waging an economic war against Sony.

MS now has a relatively cheap console to produce, and an accessory setup that allows the system to turn profits very quickly. And with the Core SKU, they've got a system that is a minimum f $125 cheaper than the PS3.

They've also got a very good game lineup going now, will have a decent sized library, and will be releasing 2nd gen titles by the time the PS3 launches.

Sony on the other hand seems to be following in the footsteps of the original Xbox. Very expensive to manufacture, so much so that they will need to release it at $125 higher price tag than the 360 Core SKU. Sony may sell more, but that may come back to bite them in the ass when they lose billions of dollars thanks to the high cost of the hardware.


And let us not forget that historically most consoles are sold when they drop below the $200 price range. Clearly MS will be able to hit that price mark long before Sony can afford to.

MS doesn't need to match the PS3 features. They can just plug along doing exactly what they've planned to do and they'll make a profit while Sony,,,,,,,,,, we'll have to wait and see how they do.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. What Sony can afford to take a lost on, it may not be the same with Microsoft due to them not being in the same position as Sony. Why do you think they had to charge so much for a 20 gig HDD?

And just for comfort, let us not go into another pricing war. This has been done far too many times before with their pass consoles, and we ended up wrong.

 

[MasaC]

I hear that other Bluray Founders are backing Sony financally with the PS3. That would make sense as it is in their interests to get alot of PS3's out there to gain market share for Bluray which in turn will earn them lots of royalties in the long run. If this is true then I can see Sony being very competitive price-wise without loosing to much money in the process.

 

[standing ovation]

Is it just me or does MS seem to be kinda stuck in the middle between Sony and Nintendo? That both Sony and NIntendo are kind of squeezing MS from both sides?

Sandwiched between competitors is exactly where Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices Division wants to be! At the median, you do not have to be a risk-taker as much as an opportunist. :neutral:

While Sony and Nintendo are gambling with technology and ingenuity, Microsoft is waiting to absorb whatever gains a toehold. So if Blu-ray becomes the next standard, 360 will ship with a BD-ROM drive; ditto for just about everything else.

You see, the real beauty of Xbox 360 is its malleable architecture.

 

[dukmahsik]

that's what they've been saying from the get go

 

[EndR]

Sandwiched between competitors is exactly where Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices Division wants to be! At the median, you do not have to be a risk-taker as much as an opportunist. :neutral:

While Sony and Nintendo are gambling with technology and ingenuity, Microsoft is waiting to absorb whatever gains a toehold. So if Blu-ray becomes the next standard, 360 will ship with a BD-ROM drive; ditto for just about everything else.

You see, the real beauty of Xbox 360 is its malleable architecture.

heheh.. yeah but it could go either way

but I get your point..

 

[standing ovation]

Uh ... what's the other way?

 

[EndR]

Uh ... what's the other way?

That either MS gets squeezed because of their lack of "uniqueness" or that they can hold their ground or even come on top because it takes something from both camps (the power of PS3:ish with the price of Rev:ish...)

 

[expletive]

That either MS gets squeezed because of their lack of "uniqueness" or that they can hold their ground or even come on top because it takes something from both camps (the power of PS3:ish with the price of Rev:ish...)

Yes i agree its possible. Revolutions launch price will be key as well as a 360 price cut. Best case for MS wrt revolution would be a 199 launch price and being able to cut the core to $249. I'm not sure if $50 is enough of a price differentiation for people using that as a primary criteria. Of course it could be a $149 launch for revolution and no price drop, then its a no brainer for the price conscious (and even the not so price conscious).

 

[Powderkeg]

Yes i agree its possible. Revolutions launch price will be key as well as a 360 price cut. Best case for MS wrt revolution would be a 199 launch price and being able to cut the core to $249. I'm not sure if $50 is enough of a price differentiation for people using that as a primary criteria. Of course it could be a $149 launch for revolution and no price drop, then its a no brainer for the price conscious (and even the not so price conscious).

I think you overestimate Nintendo.

IMO, once the Revolution hits the mass market, the vast majority of people are going to see nothing more than a kiddie console with a TV remote for a controller. I'm pretty sure the phrase "That's so gay" will be uttered dozens of times in every store where it's for sale.

Nintendo has an image and reputation that they've built up for 20+ years, and the general public isn't going to forget that overnight just because Nintendo's controller looks like a TV remote instead of a gamepad.

Right now Nintendo is in a very similar position to Sega with the Dreamcast. They've lost millions of customers with each new console generation, culminating with the Gamecube which actually sold at a slower pace than the DC did. It doesn't matter what they release, no one is buying. The first year the Revolution will sell well to the hardcore Nintendo fans, but after that the sales will drop through the floor, just like they did with the Gamecube.


And their launch price is irrelevent. They launched at $100 cheaper than the competition last-gen, and still ended up in last place. The lower price didn't help them one single bit. Fact is, GAMES sell consoles, not controllers, or nifty colors, or connectivity to handhelds, or even media capabilities. If any of that really mattered then MS would have been first last-gen. And when it comes to games, Nintendo is in a niche market, with almost nothing to offer gamers outside of their traditional 20+ year old 1st party franchises that only established Nintendo fans are interested in anymore.

[Moderated]

 

[c0_re]

I think you overestimate Nintendo.

IMO, once the Revolution hits the mass market, the vast majority of people are going to see nothing more than a kiddie console with a TV remote for a controller. I'm pretty sure the phrase "That's so gay" will be uttered dozens of times in every store where it's for sale.

Nintendo has an image and reputation that they've built up for 20+ years, and the general public isn't going to forget that overnight just because Nintendo's controller looks like a TV remote instead of a gamepad.

Right now Nintendo is in a very similar position to Sega with the Dreamcast. They've lost millions of customers with each new console generation, culminating with the Gamecube which actually sold at a slower pace than the DC did. It doesn't matter what they release, no one is buying. The first year the Revolution will sell well to the hardcore Nintendo fans, but after that the sales will drop through the floor, just like they did with the Gamecube.


And their launch price is irrelevent. They launched at $100 cheaper than the competition last-gen, and still ended up in last place. The lower price didn't help them one single bit. Fact is, GAMES sell consoles, not controllers, or nifty colors, or connectivity to handhelds, or even media capabilities. If any of that really mattered then MS would have been first last-gen. And when it comes to games, Nintendo is in a niche market, with almost nothing to offer gamers outside of their traditional 20+ year old 1st party franchises that only established Nintendo fans are interested in anymore.

[Moderated]

Yup sad but true I can't belive so many find this a hard thing to swallow after the dismal performance of the Cube. No controller no matter how revolutionary is going to save Nintendo in the console realm.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I tend to agree, but there's a chance that we'll see something really innovative on the gameplay front that changes some perceptions out there. I still think Nintendo will do fine, lose marketshare, but remain profitable and sell 20+ million units. Maybe even 30 million units.

MS is fine. The Core SKU should never be abandoned. They want to get to the $199 price point before Sony does and the Core SKU is the vehicle they will use to get there.

 

[expletive]

I think you overestimate Nintendo.

IMO, once the Revolution hits the mass market, the vast majority of people are going to see nothing more than a kiddie console with a TV remote for a controller. I'm pretty sure the phrase "That's so gay" will be uttered dozens of times in every store where it's for sale.

Nintendo has an image and reputation that they've built up for 20+ years, and the general public isn't going to forget that overnight just because Nintendo's controller looks like a TV remote instead of a gamepad.

Right now Nintendo is in a very similar position to Sega with the Dreamcast. They've lost millions of customers with each new console generation, culminating with the Gamecube which actually sold at a slower pace than the DC did. It doesn't matter what they release, no one is buying. The first year the Revolution will sell well to the hardcore Nintendo fans, but after that the sales will drop through the floor, just like they did with the Gamecube.


And their launch price is irrelevent. They launched at $100 cheaper than the competition last-gen, and still ended up in last place. The lower price didn't help them one single bit. Fact is, GAMES sell consoles, not controllers, or nifty colors, or connectivity to handhelds, or even media capabilities. If any of that really mattered then MS would have been first last-gen. And when it comes to games, Nintendo is in a niche market, with almost nothing to offer gamers outside of their traditional 20+ year old 1st party franchises that only established Nintendo fans are interested in anymore.

[Moderated]

Cant argue with any of this.

I'm personally not a nintendo fan (though my kids have one), but if they could somehow manage to come in at $149 then i coudl see lots of people picking one up just to give it a whirl, though your points are solid on any mass acceptance of it.

 

[standing ovation]

That either MS gets squeezed because of their lack of "uniqueness" or that they can hold their ground or even come on top because it takes something from both camps (the power of PS3:ish with the price of Rev:ish...)

By allowing its 360 to undergo radical surgery from time to time, Microsoft has effectively hedged itself against total failure. It is a surprisingly conservative strategy (for Mr. Allard anyway) with tantalizing prospects -- monopoly.

You see, the best way to compete in an industry with dissimilar products is not to compete at all, but to furnish an alternative that, at its core, combines the most profitable bits from the best-sellers.

Using this model, Xbox 360 should become a viable alternative to PlayStation 3 and Revolution. After all, Microsoft could offer 'the most bang for the buck' by licensing someone else's technology and ingenuity without incurring huge development costs.

If PlayStation 3, for instance, becomes the runaway hit most people are predicting it will be, Xbox 360 will become its generic counterpart.

 

[fearsomepirate]

And their launch price is irrelevent. They launched at $100 cheaper than the competition last-gen, and still ended up in last place.

I look at it this way--they had a kiddy purple lunch box that everyone made fun of, no media capabilities (which did create negative buzz), a poor selection of action titles and RPGs, and it took much stupidity on their part with the connectivity fiasco and rejecting both LAN and online play for Microsoft to finally edge them out for 2nd place in 2004. If anything, the low price helped them maintain their position.

The fact that it took so long and so many billions of dollars for MS to overtake them despite the sheer number of stupid things Nintendo did this generation says a lot about the strength of the brand and the company.

3rd party support for next-gen is already looking much, much better than it was even at the Cube launch. The nice thing about consoles is that each generation wipes the slate clean. I wonder what you would have been saying about Sega in late 1987.

 

[c0_re]

3rd party support for next-gen is already looking much, much better than it was even at the Cube launch. The nice thing about consoles is that each generation wipes the slate clean. I wonder what you would have been saying about Sega in late 1987.

As far as developers maybe but as far as 3rd party devs Nintendo has by far the worst rep as far as being a difficult corp to work and being hard on 3rd party devs.

Consumers on the other hand do not have such short term memories, I gave my nephews a Cube for Xmas one year(with th eZelda pack) and they played it at first but now it's not even hooked up anymore it's sitting collecting dust. Given a choice do you think their gonna want another Nintendo or a 360\PS3 for Xmas next year?