Gay High

[Joe DeFuria]

i think we're just going in circles. maybe neither of us is being clear about our own positions...
i don't see how this school is "discriminatory" towards Gay people. however u seem to think that it is...

If it only accepts gay people, or has different acceptance criteria for gay people, then by definition it is discriminitory against non gays. There is no disputing that fact.

The best you can do is try and argue why this discrimination is "justified."

People like Natoma have argued in the past that "Diversity" is a just cause, for example. (Which ironically, is exactly the opposite effect caused by this school.)

the school is for people who were at one point of their lives in danger for whatever reason.

Where does it say that? Source? I have yet to see someone provide me with a source for that. As for as I can tell, it's for people who even BELIEVE they MIGHT be at risk by virture of their sexual orientation.

Even if that is true, it doesn't change the fact that this is only for gay people who fell in danger.

it will not provide "the best education evah" like someone said. it will be a simple public school like any other. the only difference is that "troubled" gay people are the only ones allowed in and that is because they can get the support they need and cannot find in other schools.

The point is, it shouldn't be another public school. It should be another PRIVATE school.

being "fat" or, dunno, "having freckles" might be a cause of bullying, however i don't see how well "Schools for fat people with freckles" will do....

It doesn't matter based on your logic. If there is bullying going on, we need to separate the victims and give them a break.

firstly because the whole issue of being "fat" is radically different from "being gay".

Oh really? Despite that there is constant debate all the time about whether each "condition" is at least in part genetic?

someone might be overweight but not consider him-herself fat, and u can always lose weight if u want/need to. u cant "turn back" from being gay.

That is all irrelevant. Nowhere in the Constitution is there "special rights" for people with "conditions." All people are to be given EQUAL rights. And specifically, the GOVERNMENT shall make no laws that violate that equality.

that is why it is part of the convention on human rights.

Religion is part of the convention, is it not? Are you saying we can't change religions?

u still completely fail to acknowledge the Geneva Convention, maybe because it doesnt occupy much of your time or thoughts.

I acknowledge it. I believe in a lot of it. And the fact is, this school VIOLATES it in my opinion, by giving special, prefernetial treatment based on sexuasl orientation.

 

[Fred]

Whats absurd is the notion that this is the very last alternative for these kids.

Nevermind that they can change schools until they find a place to fit in, or at least one where they aren't physically abused. There are literally hundreds of schools around the NYC area (yes I live here).

Look, I went through pretty severe hell when I was growing up (I was 3 grades ahead, and was picked out for that), but part of life is dealing with that.

Again, I don't care too much about this school, it does sound like a very extreme case more like a mental ward than anything else. -shrug- so long as its one of a kind, why not.

Regardless the gay and lesbian lobby are really beginning to irratate me with their over the top sensitivity to any unpleasant stimuli and the illogical rejection of equal protection clauses. I feel bad for how they were treated historically, but don't overdo it pls.

 

[London Geezer]

If it only accepts gay people, or has different acceptance criteria for gay people, then by definition it is discriminitory against non gays. There is no disputing that fact.

The best you can do is try and argue why this discrimination is "justified."

People like Natoma have argued in the past that "Diversity" is a just cause, for example. (Which ironically, is exactly the opposite effect caused by this school.)

the school is for people who were at one point of their lives in danger for whatever reason.

that's what in law terms is called "compassionate reasons". trust me, i work in a law firm, and people get allowed much more for such "compassionate reasons", which sometimes are just ridiculous. Gay people who get verbally and physically abused have more compassionate reasons than most others.

Where does it say that? Source? I have yet to see someone provide me with a source for that. As for as I can tell, it's for people who even BELIEVE they MIGHT be at risk by virture of their sexual orientation.

well to be honest i havent really seen anything on that either, as i said i have very little knowledge of the way this school would work...

Even if that is true, it doesn't change the fact that this is only for gay people who fell in danger.

yes it is, because Gay people are still on the top list of harrassment victims.

The point is, it shouldn't be another public school. It should be another PRIVATE school.

why? generally families who can afford private schools will just send their sons and daughter to another private school. some people cant afford to do so. are we going to just leave them?

Oh really? Despite that there is constant debate all the time about whether each "condition" is at least in part genetic?

"being fat" and "being Gay" are TOTALLY different Joe. one is a physical condition which can or cannot change at any given time. the other is a psychological preference embebbed in people's personalities. physical appearance can be changed, sexual preferences cannot be changed (unlike some people used to think until not long ago)

That is all irrelevant. Nowhere in the Constitution is there "special rights" for people with "conditions." All people are to be given EQUAL rights. And specifically, the GOVERNMENT shall make no laws that violate that equality.

OF COURSE there should be special rights for people with special conditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's why unenployed people get paid benefit, that is why disabled people get paid disability pensions and get free healthcare and A LOT of free services!!!!!!!!

Religion is part of the convention, is it not? Are you saying we can't change religions?

what exactly is your point?

I acknowledge it. I believe in a lot of it. And the fact is, this school VIOLATES it in my opinion, by giving special, prefernetial treatment based on sexuasl orientation.

[/quote]

it does not!!!!! it's not called "NY CAMP HIGH" and it wont have transexual cheerleaders or drag queen for basketball mascotte!!!!!! it's for people with severe problems that stem from being bullied for their sexual orientation. it's not "for people of a certain sexual orientaion"

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

london-boy,

it's for people with severe problems that stem from being bullied for their sexual orientation.

My issue is, why does the reason for bullying matter?

Person A is hit in the head with a lead pipe by a bully because Person A is a nerd.

Person B is hit in the head with a lead pipe by a bully because Person B is gay.

I do not know if I feel that a school needs to exist, as I would much prefer holding the bully accountable, but I feel it is unjust to make a school to only help Person B and not help Person A. They were both physically abused. If there is a need to help Person B that was traumatized and bullied, then I see no way to rationalize that both don't need the same form of help. I really don't get the logic. Would you care to enlighten me?

Thankx?
Dr. Ffreeze

 

[Joe DeFuria]

that's what in law terms is called "compassionate reasons".

And where is the government allowed to apply "compassionate" reasons to justify discrimination? Answer: it isn't. Likewise, the government is not to interfere with any private enterprise which wants to exist based on whatever "compassionate" reasons it deems applicable.

Gay people who get verbally and physically abused have more compassionate reasons than most others.

ANYONE who gets verbal / physical abuse has "compassionate" reasons.

Where does it say that? Source? I have yet to see someone provide me with a source for that. As for as I can tell, it's for people who even BELIEVE they MIGHT be at risk by virture of their sexual orientation.

well to be honest i havent really seen anything on that either, as i said i have very little knowledge of the way this school would work...

Right. So does this school exists for the "shelter" of "bullied" folks...or folks who may or may not be bullied?

yes it is, because Gay people are still on the top list of harrassment victims.

Says who? Did you not read the FBI report on Hate crimes I posted earlier?

why? generally families who can afford private schools will just send their sons and daughter to another private school. some people cant afford to do so. are we going to just leave them?

No, they go to public school with the rest of the people who can't afford private school, including all those people who aren't gay and are still bullied around.

"being fat" and "being Gay" are TOTALLY different Joe.

Says who?

Being a "victim" is being a "victim". You are making a case for the justification of this school based on victim status. What does it matter "why" you are a victim?

So fat people, or anorexic people, or others with "classified eating disprders" don't have the "right" to a "nice educational environment?"

one is a physical condition which can or cannot change at any given time. the other is a psychological preference embebbed in people's personalities. physical appearance can be changed, sexual preferences cannot be changed (unlike some people used to think until not long ago)

From where do these "facts" come?

And the logic of what you are saying is that ungly people who are bullied around should just get plastic surgery to "correct" the problem? Oh, but what if they "can't afford it?"

What if the ugly or fat person is PERFECTLY HAPPY with the way they are? Why are you forcing them to conform to some outside "vision" of what they "should" be?! They must either "conform", or else not havbe the "right" to a "comfortable" learning environment?

What kind of society are you creating?!

OF COURSE there should be special rights for people with special conditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's why unenployed people get paid benefit, that is why disabled people get paid disability pensions and get free healthcare and A LOT of free services!!!!!!!!

Oh, so now Homosexuality is a physically or mentally disabling disease? Homosexuals cannot physically perform activities by virtue of their sexuality that heterosexuals can? Have fun chatting with Natoma on this one.

Religion is part of the convention, is it not? Are you saying we can't change religions?

what exactly is your point?

My point is, you made a comment (paraphrasing) that "people can't change their sexuality, which is why it made it into the convention."

So how did Religion make it into the convention?

it does not!!!!!

Yes it does violate the convetion.

it's not called "NY CAMP HIGH" and it wont have transexual cheerleaders or drag queen for basketball mascotte!!!!!!

What relevance is that? It accpets people in part if not in whole based on sexual orientation.

it's for people with severe problems that stem from being bullied for their sexual orientation. it's not "for people of a certain sexual orientaion"

Where on earth does it say the school is for that?

 

[Natoma]

Dr. Ffreeze

The Harvey Milk School has existed for about 20 years now. It was created for gay students who experienced these problems, by private philanthropists. It existed, until this coming September, in this state. Now for whatever reason, NYC has granted funding to the institute so they can expand the facilities and services they provide. The school wasn't created by NYC to provide services for gay students.

 

[London Geezer]

My issue is, why does the reason for bullying matter?

Person A is hit in the head with a lead pipe by a bully because Person A is a nerd.

Person B is hit in the head with a lead pipe by a bully because Person B is gay.

I do not know if I feel that a school needs to exist, as I would much prefer holding the bully accountable, but I feel it is unjust to make a school to only help Person B and not help Person A. They were both physically abused. If there is a need to help Person B that was traumatized and bullied, then I see no way to rationalize that both don't need the same form of help. I really don't get the logic. Would you care to enlighten me?

Thankx?
Dr. Ffreeze

to be honest i'm starting to see your points, guys. slowly but yeah i do see where u're coming from.
still the fact that "class B" is being helped and "class A" is not doensnt mean that we just should not help anyone.
and yes, to be honest the on-your-face attitude of the gay community does irritate me as well sometimes. i mean i'm gay, as everyone here knows, still i have a life and dont give a shit of what people think.
like Gay Pride. yeah i went for like an hour (like going to church really, u HAVE to go) but i'm not really bothered to show my presumed "PRIDE" of being gay. maybe i'm just not really proud of it. but i don't give a shit of what people say, being it "u queer" or "u're so brave" or whatever crap u get thrown at u. that's why i never once got bullied in my life for being gay. still i DO understand that there are some people out there that can be overly sensitive to these issues. the fact that i am not doesn't mean that these people shouldn't be helped.

now back on topic...

 

[Natoma]

it's for people with severe problems that stem from being bullied for their sexual orientation. it's not "for people of a certain sexual orientaion"

Where on earth does it say the school is for that?

http://www.hmi.org/

HMI was founded in 1979 in response to an incident in a NYC group home. A 15-year-old boy was beaten and sexually assaulted by other residents. Group home staff addressed the incident by discharging the young man, explaining to him that the attack would not have happened if he were not gay. When Doctors Emery S. Hetrick and A. Damien Martin learned of the case, they marshaled the support of concerned adults and founded the Institute for the Protection of Lesbian and Gay Youth (IPLGY). The Institute was renamed in their honor after their deaths.

The school is an outgrowth of this mission.

 

[London Geezer]

and JOE, don't put words in my mouth, please. cant do the whole quoting thing cuz i'm going home now, but dont put words in my mouth.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Dr. Ffreeze

The Harvey Milk School has existed for about 20 years now. It was created for gay students who experienced these problems, by private philanthropists.

Does it still exist for gay people "with these problems", or only for gay "people who may have these problems based on their sexual orientation?"

It existed, until this coming September, in this state. Now for whatever reason, NYC has granted funding to the institute so they can expand the facilities and services they provide. The school wasn't created by NYC to provide services for gay students.

Where did Dr. Ffreeze say or imply it was created by NYC?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

i mean i'm gay, as everyone here knows, still i have a life and dont give a shit of what people think.

I did not know you were gay. But it's nice to know that "you don't give a shit" what other people think. I thought that attitude was reserved for Americans?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

and JOE, don't put words in my mouth, please. cant do the whole quoting thing cuz i'm going home now, but dont put words in my mouth.

Tell me where I put words in your mouth? Was it some logical argument where it is assumed that's what you would have to say to be consistent? Then by all means tell me where the logic breaks down.

 

[London Geezer]

i mean i'm gay, as everyone here knows, still i have a life and dont give a shit of what people think.

I did not know you were gay. But it's nice to know that "you don't give a shit" what other people think. I thought that attitude was reserved for Americans?

trying to be sarcastic?

as usual u're trying to put words in my mouth... as long as it's just words i'll be ok

sorry i couldnt resist

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The school is an outgrowth of this mission.

The mission was also originally privately funded.

Your quotes doesn't say anything about current admission practices or requirements. Try again.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

trying to be sarcastic?

Yup.

as usual u're trying to put words in my mouth... as long as it's just words i'll be ok

Did you not say you didn't give a shit what people thought?

Did you also not try and chastize me as a typical american who didn't give a "F**K" about what the Geneva Convention says?

 

[notAFanB]

I am so staying outta this topic but I'd like clarify to one last thing.

one is a physical condition which can or cannot change at any given time. the other is a psychological preference embebbed in people's personalities. physical appearance can be changed, sexual preferences cannot be changed (unlike some people used to think until not long ago)

while I see where you are going with this. if the Psycological condition can be changed, should it be enforced by the state?

 

[London Geezer]

trying to be sarcastic?

Yup.

as usual u're trying to put words in my mouth... as long as it's just words i'll be ok

Did you not say you didn't give a shit what people thought?

Did you also not try and chastize me as a typical american who didn't give a "F**K" about what the Geneva Convention says?

ahhahahahah ok so "not giving a shit about what people might think of me being gay" is, in your brain, the same as "not giving a shit about the Geneva Convention"??????

gosh.....

 

[Natoma]

Given the timbre of Dr. Ffreeze's post, it seemed as if he believed that this school was created for gay students with severe problems by the city of New York. And thus, why wouldn't the city create a school for another group with similar problems.

I made my statement wrt that. It's a private institution that is now receiving public funds. Lord knows why the city decided to do this, but I don't see a problem with it. I understand why some are unhappy with public funding for private institutions, but personally I don't see an issue with this particular cause.

Besides, there are other sources of funding that are far more reprehensible than this school could ever be.

See this as prime example: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7148

Yet I don't see anyone responding in outrage over this ridiculousness in that thread. Oh yea, let's complain about the gays, but no words for the government funding a stock market for when the next terrorist strike will occur. Come on Al-Qaeda! Bomb that city! Mamma needs a new pair of shoes!

Go government spending. But again, where's the outrage? This thread is over 5 pages now. Not a single post in response in that thread. That's pretty sad.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Here's what I can find on the site:

http://www.hmi.org/GeneralInfoAndDonations/AboutHMI/default.asp

The Hetrick-Martin Institute (HMI) believes all young people, regardless of sexual orientation or identity, deserve a safe and supportive environment in which to achieve their full potential. HMI creates this environment for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth between the ages of 12 and 21 and their families.

If it believes that all young people, reagrdless of sexual orientation, deserve a safe and supportive environment...why does it exclude this for people who are NOT "lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth"?

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

Natoma,

Thank you for clearing that up. So it started as a private enterprise, and now has received public funds. Actually, I read the thread, but I forgot that part in reading the latter parts. /sigh

I will say the answers to the questions for london-boy would still be interesting to hear, although they don't appear to be exactly pertaining to this case.

An interesting question that comes to mind, how those that feel President Bush's Faith Based Imitative feel about this as their are some similarities. Bush's Faith Initiative, from my understanding, it giving money to organizations that do good, regardless of the fact that an organization might be religious or not. This in order to have more competition for federal dollars for groups that wish to help society, and therefore have more bang per federal buck. (just my limited understanding)

Do some feel that Faith Based Initiative is a good thing while the school is not? Why?

Dr. Ffreeze