Gay High

[Natoma]

Btw, I was just talking with Eddie (my partner for anyone wondering who "eddie" is) about this. He went to a private Ballet School called Ballet Tech. Despite the fact that it's a private school for ballet students and privately funded, it is partially funded by NYC tax dollars.

So this isn't a stand alone situation.

 

[nggalai]

Hi there,

just to give some perspective from "beyond the great pond":

Here, it was presented as if NYC was opening a PUBLIC school for gay / transgender kids. References that this was a PRIVATE school that received some funding (just as other private schools do, I believe) were rather, shall we say obscured? It all read pretty much like "NYC supports segregation of queer folk already at highschool" and the like.

I don't personally endorse sexual-orientation, well, oriented schooling, personally. Might have been a good idea 20 years ago, but how are queer people supposed to learn to cope with emnity and the like in real life if they are secluded in a "queer" environment? But as I hope other private schools get some additional funding from the NYC council, I don't really see an issue, here--of course, provided they didn't get the funding just because they were "queer" to begin with.

93,
-Sascha.rb

 

[notAFanB]

Here, it was presented as if NYC was opening a PUBLIC school for gay / transgender kids. References that this was a PRIVATE school that received some funding (just as other private schools do, I believe) were rather, shall we say obscured? It all read pretty much like "NYC supports segregation of queer folk already at highschool" and the like.

thank you for that clarification. does anyone thnk this render previouse dicussions moot in this topic?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Religious Group A is already a Charity.

Wrong.

Religious groups in many cases are prohibite from competing for federal dollars on the basis that they are a "religion."

If they dole out $50 Million a year in charity work, that won't change if they are now all of a sudden a faith based organization that happens to do charity.

Um, correct.

And if they dole out $0 federal dollars right now because they are considered "a religion" and thus prohibited from doing so, that does change suddenly under the faith based initiative.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/four_page_ofbci.pdf

Unfortunately, the Federal government has often not been a willing partner to these faith-based and community groups. complicated rules and regulations that hinder these groups from competing for Federal funds on an equal footing with other, larger charities. President Bush wants to change this. secular, large or small – should compete on a level playing field, so long as they obey all legal requirements. That is the reason for the Faith-Based and Community Initiative and why it is one of his top domestic priorities.

So again, why does a religious group that is already considered a charity...

Stop. Faith based organizations are not on the same level playing field as other "non religious" based charities. That's the point.

by the very language used on the website, entangles it further with the government, which by definition of our laws is illegal?

Since when is it illegal for governement to be "entangled" with religion in any way shape or form?

Doesn't the government outlaw Murder? And if my religion condones it as a necessity to get into heaven?

Separation of Church and State does NOT simply mean that there can be no relationship between Church and State. I thought most people understood this.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

 

[RussSchultz]

thank you for that clarification. does anyone thnk this render previouse dicussions moot in this topic?

Not really. How many people who'd support a gay school getting public funding would get bent out of shape if it went to a religious school? Or vis-a-versa?

Logically, you have to be for both or neither, not for one or the other.

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

Natomi,

While segregation is at conflict with the very core of my beliefs, sometimes there isn't an option.

Ahh, HA! =P I was just going to ask you this question.

Natomi, do you think segregation is:

a] Always wrong
b] Never wrong
c] Sometimes wrong

Someone mentioned that you changed views on segregation in this thread earlier. I didn't hear you state your personal views on segregation so I thought I would ask myself but you answered it for me. It is very easy to discuss or debate when someone says always or never as they are absolute. The sometimes is were things get fuzzy. You and I might both believe that most all of the time, segregation is wrong, but on rare occasions for the greater good, it is necessary. The devil is in the details. Grey area. We just draw the line a bit differently.

Dr. Ffreeze

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Hi there,

just to give some perspective from "beyond the great pond":

Here, it was presented as if NYC was opening a PUBLIC school for gay / transgender kids. References that this was a PRIVATE school that received some funding (just as other private schools do, I believe) were rather, shall we say obscured? It all read pretty much like "NYC supports segregation of queer folk already at highschool" and the like.

http://www.hmi.org/GeneralInfoAndDo...ls/Params/pressReleaseFromTop/53/default.aspx

New York, NY - 6/20/02) - In a historic, landmark decision, the New York Board of Education voted last night to approve a $3.2 Million expansion to The Hetrick-Martin Institute's Harvey Milk School, the world's first and largest accredited public school devoted to the educational needs of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered and Questioning youth.

 

[notAFanB]

Not really. How many people who'd support a gay school getting public funding would get bent out of shape if it went to a religious school? Or vis-a-versa?

ANY type of public funds? what if it is to kick start the institution (flawed but I'm just making an analogy here) for a limited period?

 

[Natoma]

Hi there,

just to give some perspective from "beyond the great pond":

Here, it was presented as if NYC was opening a PUBLIC school for gay / transgender kids. References that this was a PRIVATE school that received some funding (just as other private schools do, I believe) were rather, shall we say obscured? It all read pretty much like "NYC supports segregation of queer folk already at highschool" and the like.

http://www.hmi.org/GeneralInfoAndDo...ls/Params/pressReleaseFromTop/53/default.aspx

New York, NY - 6/20/02) - In a historic, landmark decision, the New York Board of Education voted last night to approve a $3.2 Million expansion to The Hetrick-Martin Institute's Harvey Milk School, the world's first and largest accredited public school devoted to the educational needs of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered and Questioning youth.

Now it can be considered a public school of sorts because it receives public funding, even though it is a private school. Just as many other private schools receive public funding.

Btw, I was just talking with Eddie (my partner for anyone wondering who "eddie" is) about this. He went to a private Ballet School called Ballet Tech. Despite the fact that it's a private school for ballet students and privately funded, it is partially funded by NYC tax dollars.

So this isn't a stand alone situation.

 

[Natoma]

Natomi,

While segregation is at conflict with the very core of my beliefs, sometimes there isn't an option.

Ahh, HA! =P I was just going to ask you this question.

Natomi, do you think segregation is:

a] Always wrong
b] Never wrong
c] Sometimes wrong

Someone mentioned that you changed views on segregation in this thread earlier. I didn't hear you state your personal views on segregation so I thought I would ask myself but you answered it for me. It is very easy to discuss or debate when someone says always or never as they are absolute. The sometimes is were things get fuzzy. You and I might both believe that most all of the time, segregation is wrong, but on rare occasions for the greater good, it is necessary. The devil is in the details. Grey area. We just draw the line a bit differently.

Dr. Ffreeze

If people segregate because they wish to, then so be it. If they are forced to segregate by the government, then I believe that is wrong.

I would be very much opposed to this if NYC came up with this school and forced gay students into the situation, however, that is not the case, which is why this isn't like historical segregation that some have likened it to.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Btw, I was just talking with Eddie (my partner for anyone wondering who "eddie" is) about this. He went to a private Ballet School called Ballet Tech. Despite the fact that it's a private school for ballet students and privately funded, it is partially funded by NYC tax dollars.

So this isn't a stand alone situation.

So, does that private ballet school only accept gay applicants, or discriminate applicants in any other way?

If so, then that is wrong as well. If not, then what's the problem? No one is disputing that some public funds can go to some private causes. The point is, such causes when receiving such funds cannot discriminate as to who can benefit from them.

Such as the faith based initiative. Public funds going to private (fiath based) organizations...with the STRING ATTACHED, that the beneficiaries of those funds cannot be discriminated against.

 

[Natoma]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/four_page_ofbci.pdf

Unfortunately, the Federal government has often not been a willing partner to these faith-based and community groups. complicated rules and regulations that hinder these groups from competing for Federal funds on an equal footing with other, larger charities. President Bush wants to change this. secular, large or small – should compete on a level playing field, so long as they obey all legal requirements. That is the reason for the Faith-Based and Community Initiative and why it is one of his top domestic priorities.

So again, why does a religious group that is already considered a charity...

Stop. Faith based organizations are not on the same level playing field as other "non religious" based charities. That's the point.

And why is this the case? What are these special rules and regulations that faith based organizations have to fulfill in order to receive funding. Maybe they need to sign special papers that specifically state that they will not use the federal funds to discriminate against anyone because of their religion?

Other than that, I can't really think of any other reason why they would not be able to receive federal funding.

by the very language used on the website, entangles it further with the government, which by definition of our laws is illegal?

Since when is it illegal for governement to be "entangled" with religion in any way shape or form?

Doesn't the government outlaw Murder? And if my religion condones it as a necessity to get into heaven?

Separation of Church and State does NOT simply mean that there can be no relationship between Church and State. I thought most people understood this.

I know what separation of church and state means. But it has expanded, ty supreme court, to mean more than just the establishment of a government sponsored religious body to the exclusion of others.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Now it can be considered a public school of sorts because it receives public funding, even though it is a private school. Just as many other private schools receive public funding.

Um, it's a private school "of sorts?" You sure HMI agrees with that when they flat out state that they are an accredited public school?

Name me one other private institution that gets public funding...and uses those funds in discriminitory practice, and I'll show you a private institution that's wrong.

 

[Natoma]

Btw, I was just talking with Eddie (my partner for anyone wondering who "eddie" is) about this. He went to a private Ballet School called Ballet Tech. Despite the fact that it's a private school for ballet students and privately funded, it is partially funded by NYC tax dollars.

So this isn't a stand alone situation.

So, does that private ballet school only accept gay applicants, or discriminate applicants in any other way?

If so, then that is wrong as well. If not, then what's the problem? No one is disputing that some public funds can go to some private causes. The point is, such causes when receiving such funds cannot discriminate as to who can benefit from them.

Such as the faith based initiative. Public funds going to private (fiath based) organizations...with the STRING ATTACHED, that the beneficiaries of those funds cannot be discriminated against.

Yes. You can't go to the private high school if you didn't attend the middle school. On top of that, you can't go if you're not a ballet student. What happens to the person if they just want an education and they don't want to study ballet? Sorry, can't go.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

And why is this the case? What are these special rules and regulations that faith based organizations have to fulfill in order to receive funding. Maybe they need to sign special papers that specifically state that they will not use the federal funds to discriminate against anyone because of their religion?

That's the point. Without the inititative, they CAN'T sign a special paper and say that "they won't be discriminitory." There's a whole mess conflicting federal and state laws (not constitutional law) that have essentially prevented it. In effect, There's a clash between civil rights and "separation Church and State."

Other than that, I can't really think of any other reason why they would not be able to receive federal funding.

For example:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/12/20021212.html

For example, in Iowa, the Victory Center Rescue Mission was threatened with having its $100,000 in Federal funds supporting its homeless shelter revoked because its governing board was not sufficiently "secular." The Rescue Mission opted out of the Federal program (under which it had been awarded $367,000) and sold the shelter to another organization that was considered "secular" enough. In New York, the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty - a council of secular organizations - was informed by federal officials that it could not apply for a grant because of the word "Jewish" in its name.

I know what separation of church and state means. But it has expanded, ty supreme court, to mean more than just the establishment of a government sponsored religious body to the exclusion of others.

Obviously. My point is, it has not expanded to the point where government and religions can not have some type of relatoinships.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Yes. You can't go to the private high school if you didn't attend the middle school.

And is the middle school discriminitory? (And does this

On top of that, you can't go if you're not a ballet student. What happens to the person if they just want an education and they don't want to study ballet? Sorry, can't go.

Oh, so what you are saying is that there is a performance metric for attendance - completion. This performance metric doesn't discriminate based on race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

I assume this is the school in question:

http://www.ballettech.org/auditions.html

"All NYC Public School students are eligible to audition to Ballet Tech."

Will all NYC Public School students, regardless of sexual orientation, eligible to apply to HMI? Will admissions be based on a performance metric, or on sexual orientation?

 

[Malo]

to get entry you must fulfill the requirement right?

what kind of tests do they have for entry? what do you have to do to prove that your homosexual?

 

[Natoma]

Ok then that is understandable. However, I don't see the need for "faith based initiative" then. Just expand the current charity laws to include a by-law that states that if you are a religious entity you have to sign some papers stating that you have to use the federal funds in a certain manner. Would be a simple matter rather than creating some "faith based initiative" which is just asking for trouble and rejection.

 

[Vince]

to get entry you must fulfill the requirement right?

what kind of tests do they have for entry? what do you have to do to prove that your homosexual?

HA! I asked this earlier but nobody answered me.

I still don't understand why this public school can allow enterence along arbitrary lines (in this case, sexual-orientiation), but a public school in the deep south for comparison, can't allow entrance along similiarly arbitrary lines... say, race.

Hell, atleast you could empirically test for race... Going back to Kalbaz, how are we going to test for this?

 

[Natoma]

But you're discriminating against people who are not balletically gifted. They are intelligent human beings, and the school is receiving public funds, so they should be able to get in if they have the grades. After all, funds to go to education should be all about education and not some other metric right? That is what you're arguing.