Gates on Motion Enabled game pads

[Jabjabs]

Didn't an MS representative (unsure who) say a week or two ago that they considered the tilt function for 360 but decided that it wasn't needed?

I'll look for it.

 

[Nesh]

I'm not saying that the PS3 control is good, bad, or otherwise. My point is that MS has the right to reject it as relevant because they did incorporate a very similar technology (and almost identical game concept) in a product at the same time the PS2 was released.

When MS was designing the original Xbox, the Sidewinder Pro was a current product for them.

I refuse believe that during the design of the xbox someone didnt say "hey how about that tilt stuff we're using in the sidewinder", only to have it rejected for any number of reasons.

Yes, Gates would have said this stuff regardless but bottom line, when you designed something very similar 6 years ago and released it, lost money on it, then dumped the concept, you get the right to downplay someone else doing it 6 years later. imo.

I didnt imply you ment PS3's or Wii's controller was bad.

What I am saying is that MS is trying to use their supposed experience with the motion sensing controller as an arguement to prove that its a useless feature that cant work.

Its like someone from Sega appears in 1999 and states that the internet is a waste of money because it didnt work well with the Saturn.

Its obvious that the reasons why their controller failed was because it was on the wrong format and at the same time not available the appropriate way. And I am sure they know that

 

[expletive]

I didnt imply you ment PS3's or Wii's controller was bad.

What I am saying is that MS is trying to use their supposed experience with the motion sensing controller as an arguement to prove that its a useless feature that cant work.

Its like someone from Sega appears in 1999 and states that the internet is a waste of money because it didnt work well with the Saturn.

Its obvious that the reasons why their controller failed was because it was on the wrong format and at the same time not available the appropriate way. And I am sure they know that

Possibly, or maybe they geniunely think its a very limited funcitonality and an inefficient cost/fun ratio.

I agree with a lot with what youre saying here, even though the internet thing is a stretch i get your point.

I just think statements regarding this technology from MS hold more weight than another competitor who hadnt tried something very similar before.

I also think its very unlikely that they didnt consider it with the xbox 1, given its proximity to their PC motion gamepad, and then didnt revisit the concept for the 360.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I just think statements regarding this technology from MS hold more weight than another competitor who hadnt tried something very similar before.

Even if they tried it unsuccessfully, I don't see that their experiences are indicative. I can think of half a dozen key uses which will add a considerable amount to gameplay, including unique concepts. I have a control scheme for a game idea that I couldn't map to DS2 with 2 sticks comfortably, but with motion control it'd be perfect. It seems to me a little as though it's 'difference' syndrome. Wii received similar critiques. People don't know what Motion enabled games will be like, it's something new, DS3 has lost something they're used too, and hence aversion. But with a little imagination the propsects seem very clear to me. In the different games I play on PS2 I'm thinking about motion and seeing loads of opportunities. I'm really keen on the idea. As I've said in other threads on this matter, it was an obvious inclusion me and friends/family were wanting back in PS1's day. As long as it's used properly, it should be very good. No-one to date has developed those games and previous games aren't indicative of what to expect, in the main, so past experiences don't count for much.

 

[expletive]

Even if they tried it unsuccessfully, I don't see that their experiences are indicative. I can think of half a dozen key uses which will add a considerable amount to gameplay, including unique concepts. I have a control scheme for a game idea that I couldn't map to DS2 with 2 sticks comfortably, but with motion control it'd be perfect. It seems to me a little as though it's 'difference' syndrome. Wii received similar critiques. People don't know what Motion enabled games will be like, it's something new, DS3 has lost something they're used too, and hence aversion. But with a little imagination the propsects seem very clear to me. In the different games I play on PS2 I'm thinking about motion and seeing loads of opportunities. I'm really keen on the idea. As I've said in other threads on this matter, it was an obvious inclusion me and friends/family were wanting back in PS1's day. As long as it's used properly, it should be very good. No-one to date has developed those games and previous games aren't indicative of what to expect, in the main, so past experiences don't count for much.

Obviously its not all about 'what has been done' and more about 'what could be done', its about the possibilities. I'm sure that when a company is designing a controller for a game console, they do their best to imagine those possibilities.

The way you put it makes it seem like Sony has a better team of people dreaming up what could be done with the thing, and if MS had that level of 'talent', theyd have come up with the same thing. I'd disagree there and say that MS took both their past experience as well as ideas on what the tech 'could' provide, and rejected it anyway.

Had MS never done anything like this in their past, you could easily make the argument that they were just asleep at the wheel on the controller side of things. Since they had, i think the more likely scenario is that they took everything into consideration (experience, imagination, current technology, cost, etc), and went in a different direction anyway.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The way you put it makes it seem like Sony has a better team of people dreaming up what could be done with the thing, and if MS had that level of 'talent', theyd have come up with the same thing.

Not at all, you reading in nuances I never intended. The tech and opportunity wasn't there before for Gate and MS to have relevant experience. Where's the controller with dual analogue sticks, dual shoulder buttons and motion control that MS made? They didn't. Where's the hardware platform MS created with this controller as standard, so all devs could rely upon it's presence and develop for it? There isn't. What they did provide, similar in concept, is very diffrent in execution. Gates saying 'we've experience and it doesn't work' is rather like a 1980's telecom company saying 'we've tried mobile phones and they're not popular and not something people are interested in'

Anyone offering this solution like Sony would have the same chances and better game control. It's just Sony are first to provide it this way. If MS had provided this functionality for XB I'd be saying the same for them.

 

[expletive]

Not at all, you reading in nuances I never intended. The tech and opportunity wasn't there before for Gate and MS to have relevant experience. Where's the controller with dual analogue sticks, dual shoulder buttons and motion control that MS made? They didn't. Where's the hardware platform MS created with this controller as standard, so all devs could rely upon it's presence and develop for it? There isn't. What they did provide, similar in concept, is very diffrent in execution. Gates saying 'we've experience and it doesn't work' is rather like a 1980's telecom company saying 'we've tried mobile phones and they're not popular and not something people are interested in'

Anyone offering this solution like Sony would have the same chances and better game control. It's just Sony are first to provide it this way. If MS had provided this functionality for XB I'd be saying the same for them.

Youre kind of missing the point, its not the relevance of this controller now or why this will be good whereas the MS stab on the PC was bad. My point is that if someone like Sega (if they were still in the console business) were to poo-poo the idea then, imo, clearly its sour grapes.

However, even though Gates' comments may be sour grapes, he gets a pass in my book. Reason being theyve looked at this before, and very likely looked at it a few more times since 2000, reassessing the tech, possibilities, and cost as they went along.

If you want to say "no its still sour grapes because now the tech is mature, etc, etc" thats cool, we'll just disagree. I doubt they left it for dead and just never looked back, especially after seeing the immense amount of effort that goes into planning every screw on these units.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I think they thought (as I think most others did too) that motion sensing in PS3 would be done by the Eye Toy camera, that's why they did have the cam on display already on E3 2005.
Even Sony was heavily promoting the next gen Eye Toy at E3 2005, but this year they it's presence was small, and the gyro controller had taken it's place as the motions sensing tech of choice.
The cam would have been a bit too awkward anyway for many users because it needs setting up before operational.
The gyro controller must've caught MS by surprise, as they had announced a "me too" "minority Report" style tech recently to compete with the PS3 Eye Toy motion/gestutre recognition that they believed Sony would show more closely at E3 2006.

 

[mckmas8808]

The way you put it makes it seem like Sony has a better team of people dreaming up what could be done with the thing, and if MS had that level of 'talent', theyd have come up with the same thing. I'd disagree there and say that MS took both their past experience as well as ideas on what the tech 'could' provide, and rejected it anyway.

Not to be a jerk expletive, but I think Sony could come up with better ways to use the motion controller. Just looking at first party games from both sides that is. And also taking into account that Sony has already had the eyetoy out for years makes me believe that they seen this "play games differently" experience kinda Nintendo seen it.

 

[NANOTEC]

The way you put it makes it seem like Sony has a better team of people dreaming up what could be done with the thing, and if MS had that level of 'talent', theyd have come up with the same thing. I'd disagree there and say that MS took both their past experience as well as ideas on what the tech 'could' provide, and rejected it anyway.

Had MS never done anything like this in their past, you could easily make the argument that they were just asleep at the wheel on the controller side of things. Since they had, i think the more likely scenario is that they took everything into consideration (experience, imagination, current technology, cost, etc), and went in a different direction anyway.

Agreed.

 

[aaaaa00]

MS has had a long history of trying new things with controllers.

The Dual Strike, Strategic Commander, Freestyle Pro were all weird and wacky innovative controllers that actually made it to market. They worked to lesser and greater degrees, but you can't fault them for not being innovative.

There's a lot of current MS Research going on into pointing devices and controllers. The pointing wand thing MSR was showing a while back greatly predates the Wii-mote, and MS has been experimenting with machine vision and shape and object recognition (like that Sony Eyetoy card battle game and Minority Report type stuff) for years now.

If they looked at accelerometers and decided they weren't going to do them for 360, maybe it was the wrong decision this time -- but you absolutely cannot accuse MS of being knee jerk about it, they're constantly researching new kinds of input devices.

 

[inefficient]

The technology has been around for a long time.

Gyration hass been making pointing devices with this tech for several years.
http://www.gyration.com/en-US/ProductDetail.html?modelnum=GC1005M&accshow=3

We have one of these at work for the conference room. And generally its ok - useable enough. The only significant annoyance to me was that when ever you try to click on something, you unintentionally cause the pointer to move. Double clicking is a particularlly a difficult motion to do while keeping your hand perfectly still. But as long as the target your trying to click is large enough it should not be a big problem.

 

[quest55720]

If gates is saying tacking on motion to a normal controller is not a great idea I agree with him. If he is saying all motion on any controller is bad I disagree. With the ps3 any game that uses the sticks or digital pad I will not be able to use motion because I tend to move my hands and controller when gaming for some reason. For the wii I think it will be a different story because the analog stick will be on a seperate device that I can move around but still point the wand with a seperate hand. I will give both a shot and I hope that both work really well.

 

[NANOTEC]

The technology has been around for a long time.

Gyration hass been making pointing devices with this tech for several years.
http://www.gyration.com/en-US/ProductDetail.html?modelnum=GC1005M&accshow=3

We have one of these at work for the conference room. And generally its ok - useable enough. The only significant annoyance to me was that when ever you try to click on something, you unintentionally cause the pointer to move. Double clicking is a particularlly a difficult motion to do while keeping your hand perfectly still. But as long as the target your trying to click is large enough it should not be a big problem.

Double clicking is soooo last year.

 

[_phil_]

not trolling ,but MS want to keep some paralel between PC front and console Front.Maybe they want to keep ports toward(/from) PC open.

 

[Arwin]

not trolling ,but MS want to keep some paralel between PC front and console Front.Maybe they want to keep ports toward(/from) PC open.

Easy enough to connect the 360's controllers to the PC even now, isn't it? More importantly, motion sensing may be helpful replacing some of the mouse functions.

 

[zed]

lol, do you want to put some money on that?

(disnt see this + previous post before) but yep i do,
btw u can send the money to postbank 4442.66643.4674
the previous poster makes a good point emulating the mouse.
now we all agree that mouse players have big advantages in certain games than joystick(controller) players eg FPS's.
now if we could use tilt as some sort of movement ramping factor it would greatly enchance joystick players control.
watch any dude playing a game and the action get hairy + they wanna leave quickly they are not rock solid, they twitch with there body, like somehow if they move there hands the character is gonna move quicker left (of course it doesnt)
but imagine if it didnt, ie the hands control great sweeping changes of movement but the joysticks control the finer adjustments. i believe with such a system. joystick players may approach mouse players levels of control.

 

[jonnyp]

With good reason. The Wii-mote is well thought out. The PS3 controller motion control is a gimmick and the loss of rumble was not worth it IMO.

I completely disagree. I think it can be quite useful. And rumble I've never liked anyway. Good riddance.

 

[_phil_]

Easy enough to connect the 360's controllers to the PC even now, isn't it? More importantly, motion sensing may be helpful replacing some of the mouse functions.

yes ,you're right.I see no reason for MS to comment on sony's choice.I think the worse is that Bill gates actually believe what he's telling us.Or is trying hard to.

 

[scooby_dooby]

(disnt see this + previous post before) but yep i do,
btw u can send the money to postbank 4442.66643.4674

it's like stealing candy from a baby