Formula 1 - 2015 season

[Gubbi]

Took some time writing my prior post. As mentioned, there's likely more than meets the eye on these reports.

I think Horner will be taken serious. STR and Red Bull made up a quarter of the starting grid yesterday, and Horner is not exactly the only disgruntled team principal. McLaren/Honda are in free fall and they have *zero* chance of getting back into the mix despite all their combined resources.

This engine freeze nonsense needs to stop at once, there is absolutely no excitement about race outcomes.

Cheers

 

[Bludd]

Maybe Renault will buy Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing can run on as Arden F1

 

[Dave Baumann]

I think Horner will be taken serious. STR and Red Bull made up a quarter of the starting grid yesterday, and Horner is not exactly the only disgruntled team principal. McLaren/Honda are in free fall and they have *zero* chance of getting back into the mix despite all their combined resources.

This engine freeze nonsense needs to stop at once, there is absolutely no excitement about race outcomes.

Well, first the engine freeze rule has stopped, as the development can continue throughout the year, within the use of allotted tokens - Renault have chosen to spend the least of all teams so far (they have 12 left, Ferrari 10 and Merc 7), stating they will use them later in the year where they can plan them in conjunction with next years allocation as well. It seems for Renault, the changes they have made so far have made things worse rather than better, at least initially with the current engine maps. Honda, at the moment, are basically running without an MGU-K in order to help reliability and that will get resolved outside of engine token use; they additionally have 9 or 10 tokens (based on an average of the remaining from the rest of the teams) to spend on performance through the year.

However, given that 3 other teams have access to the same engine and the best of those is looking equal to Ferrari, you have to point to aero now being the biggest differentiator for Mercedes.

 

[Phil]

However, given that 3 other teams have access to the same engine and the best of those is looking equal to Ferrari, you have to point to aero now being the biggest differentiator for Mercedes.

Unless Mercedes has such good aero crucially because their PU is that good. A better PU can influence aero in that for instance they can run more downforce without the trade-off other teams with weaker PUs are facing. That might give the false impression that Mercedes is solely as good because of their chassis/aero. Just to be clear; I do think Mercedes has very good aero - but I think more importantly, they have the best package in which the PU plays a dominant role. Williams, who is now equal to Ferrari, is arguably only as good as they are because they have that PU advantage, but on the aero/chassis side I'm not that convinced. In 2014, they had significantly worse tyre wear to Mercedes and their cornering speed also highlighted their lack of downforce. RedBull might very well have had a mighty aero/chassis in 2014, but had to run extremely compromised due to the lack of power from their PU.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Phil, that's what I'm saying - Williams, Force India and Lotus all have access to the same Power Unit as Merc and the best of them is 1 second behind, and that is due to an aero deficiency relative to the works team. Its clear that the aero is working very well.

Also note the step that the Ferrari PU has made. The paddock wittering is that this has improved by as much as 100hp relative to last year, and the easiest thing to look at to validate that a clear step has been made is the performance of Sauber.

 

[mczak]

Also note the step that the Ferrari PU has made. The paddock wittering is that this has improved by as much as 100hp relative to last year, and the easiest thing to look at to validate that a clear step has been made is the performance of Sauber.

Did they improve that much actually? Now judging by the result it seems obvious. Nasr managed to not get overlapped (but really barely, had already seen blue flags...), something Sauber managed in only one race last year. Ericsson's performance though imho was pretty uninspiring, pretty similar to what Sauber did all the last season. Sure he was eighth but he'd never have caught Sainz if not for his botched 40-second pit stop, and benefited from several other faster drivers mishaps, like the Raikkonen pit stop, not to mention McLaren weren't seriously competing due to their engine problems. (Sauber did have the chance to get points last season similarly in some races, but they couldn't due to either own technical issues or driver errors.)
I am actually seriously wondering did the car make all that much progress or is it just Nasr? I must say I'm quite impressed by this so-called "pay driver" rookie regardless, I wouldn't really have expected him to outclass Ericsson in his first F1 race, I guess we'll see how this plays out in the next races - maybe Sauber should reconsider van der Garde ;-).
Not that I doubt the engine improved at least compared to the non-Mercedes competition - but I find it pretty much impossible to really factor out individual pieces contributing to the result, with all new car, all new drivers. Maybe after some more races...
Clearly though Red Bull seem to have more issues than just the engine. It is quite surprising their partner team Toro Rosso was just about every bit as fast (despite that in the end RB got a much better result) - at least I don't think the cars are all that similar. Now of course you could argue it's all because they have the same engine...

 

[-tkf-]

Let's not forget that it's unlikely that Mercedes ran their engine anywhere close to max. With the gap they have they didn't need to.

And as for red bull, the series don't need them, i wouldn't miss them.

 

[Davros]

Williams, Force India and Lotus all have access to the same Power Unit as Merc and the best of them is 1 second behind, and that is due to an aero deficiency

I thought it was due to a difference between the merc pu being more optimised since merc have a good idea about the engine from conception while customers only find out when its fully built, that was the case last year it was discussed a bit here:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/formula-1-2014-season.55167/page-40
and in more detail here :
http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/1...of-their-turbo-engine-has-given-them-the-edge

 

[IainF]

Red Bull are annoyed that the FIA banned several technologies that gave them an edge when they were dominant but not currently with Mercedes on top. However that is a bit disingenuous really because those technologies that were banned in many cases were bending the spirit of the rules if not the letter (blown diffusers and bendy front wings). The front wing thing in particular exploited that the at rest compliance test was in no way representative (even when they changed it) of the real loads at speed. FRIC got banned anyway last year which arguably Mercedes had the best implementation of so that argument does not really hold. It seems the Mercedes advantage isn't down to some magic technology that no one else has, they have just simply designed a better package and have competitive drivers.

In other news very interesting, while all the commentators were expressing "surprise" that the McLaren was so slow and failing to mention that they were running with the engine turned down and the ERS off (overheat issues apparently)just to get it to last without breaking; for the last 2 laps of the race despite ERS being kept off they at least turned the wick up on the engine and Button posted a 1 minute 33 last lap. considering he still had no ERS that is actually pretty decent actually. If they can fix the teething troubles with that brand new engine they might actually have a quick car. this year is clearly development for them, they might just surprise a few people though. Button certainly made Sergio Perez look pretty silly.

 

[IainF]

Just to add, both Button and Alonso are known as very good development drivers, able to speak and communicate well with the engineers (a skill not every quick driver has) and also able to drive very smoothly and to very stable target lap times consistently lap after lap, which is very useful when assessing performance and setup changes.

 

[Rurouni]

ERS wasn't off on McLaren car (based on the interview with Arai). MGU-H ran relatively fine. It was the MGU-K that had problem. Basically they only run the MGU-K to help with the fuel consumption, even if it just help a bit. They were basically running in fuel saving with Button instructed to do a lot lift and coasting and they even limited the fuel flow. The fuel consumption is bad because they can't run full power, and probably with the current detuned engine, they are bellow the maximum km/l that the engine could potentially do.
Near the end, they are simply using more fuel (increase the fuel flow), thus get that 1:33.

 

[DJ12]

Just to add, both Button and Alonso are known as very good development drivers, able to speak and communicate well with the engineers (a skill not every quick driver has) and also able to drive very smoothly and to very stable target lap times consistently lap after lap, which is very useful when assessing performance and setup changes.

You say that but McLaren have only gone one direction since button has been there and it's not up in case you were wondering.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Button is overrated anyway. Apart from Brawn he never really performed.

 

[DJ12]

Brawn, a car that was as dominate as the Mercedes and he still only just won the championship.

 

[Kaotik]

Button is overrated anyway. Apart from Brawn he never really performed.

He actually scored more points than Hamilton during the time both of them were at McLaren
--

Ecclestone agrees with Horner and thinks FIA should have done something (and mentions that FIA's regulations allow them to equalize the field if one is performing too high above the rest)

 

[DJ12]

He actually scored more points than Hamilton during the time both of them were at McLaren
--

Ecclestone agrees with Horner and thinks FIA should have done something (and mentions that FIA's regulations allow them to equalize the field if one is performing too high above the rest)

Yes he did, one year Hamilton was self-destructing, and another where Hamilton would've walked the Championship if his car was reliable.

I'm sick of people trotting out that line to somehow claim Button is better than he is.

Of course Ecclestone agrees, but where was he the previous 4 seasons when Vettel was winning everything and Red Bull were being very liberal in their application of the rules? There is no suggestion Mercedes are doing anything underhand at all, they have just designed a brilliant engine (which 3 other teams have) and a brilliant car.

Fair play to them, if artificial measures are brought in, all that will mean is teams like Williams, Force India and Lotus will just get worse as Mercedes are brought back into the clutches of Ferrari, but then where do you stop, when Ferrari pull ahead because Mercedes have been nobbled, do you then do the same to them?

Much better to let teams "Just get your fucking head down, work hard and try to sort it out".

Why should other teams be handicapped because Renault seemed to have forgotten how to make a decent engine? This is the real problem for Horner, he cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel with Renault. I say to him, you chose to stick with them so who's to blame. Right now you could be running on Mercedes power and be challenging, it was your choice.

 

[Kaotik]

Yes he did, one year Hamilton was self-destructing, and another where Hamilton would've walked the Championship if his car was reliable.

I'm sick of people trotting out that line to somehow claim Button is better than he is.

Hamilton DNF'd total of 5 times more than Button during those 3 seasons (2, 1, 2). CBA to actually check how many were car braking down and how many crashes

Of course Ecclestone agrees, but where was he the previous 4 seasons when Vettel was winning everything and Red Bull were being very liberal in their application of the rules? There is no suggestion Mercedes are doing anything underhand at all, they have just designed a brilliant engine (which 3 other teams have) and a brilliant car.

Fair play to them, if artificial measures are brought in, all that will mean is teams like Williams, Force India and Lotus will just get worse as Mercedes are brought back into the clutches of Ferrari, but then where do you stop, when Ferrari pull ahead because Mercedes have been nobbled, do you then do the same to them?

Much better to let teams "Just get your fucking head down, work hard and try to sort it out".

Why should other teams be handicapped because Renault seemed to have forgotten how to make a decent engine? This is the real problem for Horner, he cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel with Renault. I say to him, you chose to stick with them so who's to blame. Right now you could be running on Mercedes power and be challenging, it was your choice.

There was no need to for him to say similar comments during those 4 seasons simply due the fact that FIA did change rules to limit Red Bull performance.
Of the features Red Bull mastered "better than the rest", FIA banned double diffusers, blown diffusers, bending floors, moved the exhausts and even forced them to change their engine maps mid-season

edit: Also, of those 4 seasons Red Bull really dominated only 2, and it's arguable if the difference was even then as big it was for Mercedes last season and looks to be this season.

Also, for what it's worth, they could change rules by limiting other features Mercedes is using to gain their advantage besides the engine, just like they did on Red Bull.

 

[DJ12]

Bendy floors, illegal. (Movable aerodynamic device)
Bendy wings, illegal. (Movable aerodynamic device)

Red Bull still managed to dominate until the engine change though, how many races did Vettel win on the bounce? 9 was it?

McLaren were more affected by the change in engine maps so I don't see your point.

Double diffusers were banned to slow all the cars down, for safety.

What other features are Mercedes using? Should they make them use smaller wings?, narrower tyres? Mercedes aren't "bending" the rules like Red Bull, so why should they be punished for being better than everything else.

So unless you can find something Mercedes are doing that is breaking a rule, I do not see the relevance to anything in your post to be perfectly honest.

 

[Phil]

Phil, that's what I'm saying - Williams, Force India and Lotus all have access to the same Power Unit as Merc and the best of them is 1 second behind, and that is due to an aero deficiency relative to the works team. Its clear that the aero is working very well.

Yes, sorry, I misread part of your post. I guess my point was more, that while it is clear that Mercedes has the best aero/chassis among its customer teams, it's hard to compare the Mercs aero/chassis to say the RedBull or any other team running a different power unit, as it's hard to quantifiy how much of an influence it has. I think what makes the Mercedes as dominant as it is, is the package. It has the best power unit, and undoubtly a very good chassis/aero.

Not surprising actually, as they already had a very good aero/chassis in 2013 when all of the teams had give or take an equal performing PU.

 

[Kaotik]

Bendy floors, illegal. (Movable aerodynamic device)
Bendy wings, illegal. (Movable aerodynamic device)

Red Bull still managed to dominate until the engine change though, how many races did Vettel win on the bounce? 9 was it?

McLaren were more affected by the change in engine maps so I don't see your point.

Double diffusers were banned to slow all the cars down, for safety.

What other features are Mercedes using? Should they make them use smaller wings?, narrower tyres? Mercedes aren't "bending" the rules like Red Bull, so why should they be punished for being better than everything else.

So unless you can find something Mercedes are doing that is breaking a rule, I do not see the relevance to anything in your post to be perfectly honest.

What Red Bull did was legal at the time, based on loopholes in the rules. There's no doubt that every team tries to take advantage of any possible loophole they can find, Red Bull just did it better than the rest at the time.
The fact that engines can be developed during season is based on a loophole too, the intent of the rule was that engines need to be final on first GP, but it was worded poorly. This loophole, instead of being shut, was made official.

And for the sake of sport, yes, they should limit the performance of team x if it gains too much performance compared to rest, it's been done before directly in other FIA regulated sports too, if I'm not mistaken, and more or less directly in F1 in case of Red Bull.