E3 Award winnners announced

[Qroach]

Ingenu,

Yeah the PS1. It was once referred to as the PSX, that why it was so strange for sony to use that name recently on a different product.

Johnny,

Vince, consider yourself OWNED

Ahh, nobody was "owned", it's just a debate between two very stubborn people

 

[Teasy]

I havent seen E3 HL2 movie....you guys must have....does it really look and feel so gr8??

In a word..... YES!!!

I downloaded 4 60mb videos of HL2 from E3 with developer commentary a few weeks ago. The game just looks so innovative, so polished, just incredible basically. If it doesn't end up as GOTY for 2003 then I'll be shocked to say the least!

 

[Tiberius]

Ingenu,

Yeah the PS1. It was once referred to as the PSX, that why it was so strange for sony to use that name recently on a different product.

Johnny,

Vince, consider yourself OWNED

Ahh, nobody was "owned", it's just a debate between two very stubborn people

maybe psx mean "PlayStation eXtension"

 

[wazoo]

Losing Rare was a big mistake IMO.

Let us see Rare performance on Xbox before crying.

 

[marconelly!]

GTA is one of the reasons MANY people picked up a PS2.

And so were GT3 and MGS2...

I must admit I'm kinda lost in the argument here. What exactly was the point?

 

[Almasy]

GTA is one of the reasons MANY people picked up a PS2.

And so were GT3 and MGS2...

I must admit I'm kinda lost in the argument here. What exactly was the point?

Mmmmm...that most of the awards of an american trade show were delivered to american developers? What´s so new about that? Heck, to most big japanese developers E3 isn´t even the place they prefer to show new products.

 

[Vince]

Thanks for schooling Vince for me Q, it saves me the bother.

Vince, consider yourself OWNED! 8)

Hardly, I do go to bed at 4am - it's just that biological urge that I can't put off any longer so I can counter-post.

"Schooling," heh - be happy Q's on your side, it's the only thing lending any credibility to anything comming out of your mouth.

Now, as for Q's responce:

Big Blue Box studios is a games company based near guildford in the uk which specialises in original and innovative titles. founded in 1999 by simon carter, dene carter and ian lovett, we are the first of lionhead studios' satellite developers. Although big blue box is an entirely autonomous entity we receive the full support of lionhead, which includes the talents of games guru peter molyneux, and role-playing legend steve jackson amongst others."

Quincy, you're killing me. Bud, you know better than this...

I previously stated:

So Q, I get it. It makes so much sence! So, BBB is a corperate entity that exists legally on paper and has yet to produce a PC game (or any game fort that matter) - Nevermind the fact that much of the talent is one in the same with Lionhead, the PC developer with close relations with Microsoft

This corperation issue is what I talked about in a previous post that you must have overlooked. The quote that you, yourself, posted stated that their an "autonomous entity" - which is a clear indication that their legal differnetiated. "On paper" as I described it.

Yet, the company [BBB] statement is also in agreement with what I clearly stated concerning the shared aspects between them outside the legal realm - this being talent and material. Relevent quote:

Although big blue box is an entirely autonomous entity we receive the full support of lionhead, which includes the talents of games guru peter molyneux, and role-playing legend steve jackson amongst others.

So, lets revist what Vince said:

So Q, I get it. It makes so much sence! So, BBB is a corperate entity that exists legally on paper and has yet to produce a PC game (or any game fort that matter) - Nevermind the fact that much of the talent is one in the same with Lionhead, the PC developer with close relations with Microsoft.

Which is 100% correct and verifiable from BBB's own site - I bet you wish you could say that, huh? The rest of your post concerning this topic was conjecture and/or not factually and verifiably based. Thus, I have no need to counter it as it's level of factual content is less than your average Chap post on PS3's specs. We can all dream and guess - doesn't mean it's right.

Yes there were. Western games that sold better and more copies than any japanese title release outside of japan. Western developed games that essentially sold the PS2 platform in north america and europe

Again, I'd look at games like GT3, MGS2, FFX that had as much pull as the 'Western' GTAx series and whose sales are comperable. Last I checked these titles are still highly acclaimed, high selling titles in the Western Hemisphere.

Western games that sold better and more copies than any japanese title release outside of japan

Your obviously not refering to the PS2 as the best selling game is Japanese in origion - Gran Turismo3 is the hands down leader of the pack.

So, I'll assume your talking about PSX - but is that true? Gran Turismo2 was huge, as is this Yu-Gi-Oh! that won't leave the number 1 position for PS1...

I think you're full of shit bud.

If you really want to get into an argument that titles like GTA, western sports titles, and western first person shooters didn't really catch on and sell the PS2 then go ahead.

FPS's sold PS2 hardware? Yeah, I'll argue this. Of course sports are a huge factor, but it's hardly the end-all-be-all of digital media. Nor is sports, which are cultural dependent, indicative of a trend in gaming. It's insane.

Not that it matters, since it's the western developers that have taken over the top sales on the PS2. Just look at the top selling titles on that platform.

The Getaway - SCEE
Grand Theft Audo: VC - Rockstar
The Sims - EA Games
Yu-Gi-Oh! - Konami
Devil May Cry 2 - Capcom
Xenosaga: Episode 1 - Namco
.hack//INFECTION - Bandai
ATV Off Road Fury - SCEA
Dragon Ball Z: Budokai - Atari
Madden NFL 2003 - EA Sports

Oh yes, sheer domination of the top selling games. What is it, 50%?

GTA is one of the reasons MANY people picked up a PS2. Not to forget the all the sports games and first person shooters (which are only so popular outside of japan). GTA was one example of many on the PS2

Also, "Not to forget" all the other games that are part of the the few hundred thousand units of software SCE has sold.

You're right, this is insane. I said before "outside of japan"! Almost every one of the top selling titles created outside of japan haven't sold squat inside of japan. The reason for that is Japanese gamers buy japanese made games, Period. It's always been like that and always will be like that. So the sucess of PS2 in japan can be attributed to Japanese developers, where as it's success outside of japan can be attirbuted to the western developers. Same could be said for gamecube which trails the xbox in sales in just about every region but japan. I hope you notice that trend.

I love how you can make this basically racist stance that segregates the Japanese and "Western" populations and can claim that they're totally independant and that X race only buys X products and such BS derivative arguments.

Whats funny to me is that you can make these blanket claims when there are clear and massive exceptions to your ridiculous statements like:

Western games that sold better and more copies than any japanese title release outside of japan

&

Almost every one of the top selling titles created outside of japan haven't sold squat inside of japan.

&

So the sucess of PS2 in japan can be attributed to Japanese developers, where as it's success outside of japan can be attirbuted to the western developers.

If you'd actual look at the top10 PS2 sales in Japan and then compare the list you'd see many overlappings with the "western"- influenced overall sales. For example:

FFX, VF4, Sly Cooper, DBZ...

Many of the other games are yet unreleased here and thus comparason is impossible now with total certainty, but allowing for some probolbilty, we can safely assume the same will happen for FFX-2, Soul Calibur2, et al.

Thus, there isn't this loss of Japanese influence or titles moving towards the Western World.

Yet, this also goes both ways. Titles like MoH, Sly Coopers, SOCOM and such have been making inroads into Japan. Even Kojima has commented on this recently.

Thus, I must sincerly question your statement which is based on this racist assumption that divides gamers based on arbitary lines according to culture that you've defined in theory to be "Eastern" (Japan in Practice) against "Western" (which is everyone else in practice). This is absurd. What are Koreans? Russians? Taiwanese? Where does it end? Where does it begin?


But, you don't need proof Q - this is too subjective to prove beyond what I compiled. Seiously, we'll never let this one die between us. If I were you, I'd just send in Johnny to keep talking about the world threw his eyes.. it'll drive the rest of us of the thread in frustration.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

It took some effort, but the NPD data from PS2 launch through January 2003 reveals the following:

Sales by Japanese publishers = 32%
Sales by Western publishers = 68%

It's worse when you sort things by developer, which was the original argument, but it would take too long for me to bother with that.

The top 30 PS2 games from launch through January 2003:

GRAND THEFT AUTO:VICE 4672060
GRAND THEFT AUTO 3 4405718
GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2774445*
MADDEN NFL 2003 2525161
MADDEN NFL 2002 1997978
METAL GEAR SOLID 2 1824213*
TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR3 1804758
FINAL FANTASY X 1526359*
MEDAL HONOR FRONTLINE 1510494
KINGDOM HEARTS 1249471*
ATV OFF ROAD FURY 1246214
SPIDER-MAN: THE MOVIE 1221206
NBA STREET 1208332
MAX PAYNE 1145344
TEKKEN TAG TOURNAMENT 1086899*
BOND:AGENT UNDER FIRE 1061812
JAK AND DAXTER:LEGACY 1045560
MIDNIGHT CLUB:STREET 1037073
TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR4 1005074
LORD OF RINGS: TOWERS 972578
SOCOM:U.S. NAVY SEALS 970820
MADDEN NFL 2001 934909
DRAGON BALL Z:BUDOKAI 908981*
NCAA FOOTBALL 2003 900468
WWE SMACKDOWN: BRING 879927
DEVIL MAY CRY 867163*
CRASH BANDICOOT:CORTX 851833
ACE COMBAT 4 800199*
WWE: SHUT YOUR MOUTH 782238
TWISTED METAL BLACK 771925

If you work out the numbers, 75% of the Top 30 PS2 title sales are from western developer teams. It gets worse when you consider that only two Japanese developed titles (children's games) released in 2002 managed to make the list, as opposed to eight titles from western developers.

In other words, lately the trend has been getting worse for Japanese developers.

As another indicator, if you analyze the Top 30 on PSX the split is 64/36, meaning the Japanese dev teams have lost 11 points to western dev teams during the transition from PSX to PS2.

The trend will probably get worse with PS3.

Put another way: You're wrong Vince! 8)

 

[Fafalada]

Fafalada, you should not complain. Korea is a western country to Japan. So Korea devs are > than JPN ones

Oh I'm not complaing. It's just that I personally am actually European, and blanket statements in this thread regarding developer's (as in company's) 'nationalities' can get somewhat irritating considering tons of companies out there are rather internationally staffed.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

That's true, but generally the thrust and feel of most games is determined by the top people in the development house. These people tend to be Japanese at Japanese dev houses and usually have tastes that are culturally Japanese. There are of course exceptions, but it's not the norm in my opinion.

If things were truly culturally independent, then there would be a lot of non-linear weak-story Japanese games, and a healthy dose of Japanese first person shooters, and tons of western turn-based RPGs. There aren't. Culture plays a big role in development.

The reason why Japanese developers drove the industry in US in the past is because it used to be that coding>art direction/cultural considerations. Now that the graphics have become realistic enough to portray real characters, art direction and cultural considerations are becoming more important than ever. Western dev teams code "well enough", and tend to make games that appeal to western culture. I think the trend will continue to favor western developers for the forseeable future.

 

[Blade]

I don't understand. Western developers have always been around on the consoles.. and in the sales department.

Just because one year 75% of the Top 30 is Western games doesn't mean that "OMG JAPANESE DEVELOPERS ARE GOING TO BE NONEXISTNAT IN TEH SALES CHARTS IN 2006!!!!". Trends don't always last, y'know. Look at the N64's first year, for example. People are going to buy what looks good, and it's never going to be just one thing.

 

[Qroach]

Faf, there are exceptions to what's been said of course. I know quite a few people that were from teh UL that went to go work in Japan. One of those worked at nintendo of Japan for many years prior to living in canada. He's one of the best programmers I've ever seen.

When making a wide generalization it's extremly difficult to include people like yourself (european living/working in korea). Sorry man didn't mean to offend you but there was a point to my madness I wanted to get across to vince.

Props goes to Johnny for providing that info. That was quite an effort.

 

[Qroach]

blade, this isn't just one year, it's a trend tha thas been slowing changing since the first consoles of japanese design were released outside of japan. Just go back to the famicom days and look at teh amount of games released, and how many of the titles that sold really well came from Japan. I'm sure the numbers the complete opposite of what we're seeing now -if not worse.

Nobody is saying japanese devs will be non exsistant. This is just to prove to the people that the Japanese devs don't necessarily OWN all the other devs out there. Don't ge tme wrong, they are totally talented and capable developers. Which is why they dominate in a market segment that has the highest barrier to entry Fighting games and RPG's.

 

[zurich]

I don't understand. Western developers have always been around on the consoles.. and in the sales department.

Just because one year 75% of the Top 30 is Western games doesn't mean that "OMG JAPANESE DEVELOPERS ARE GOING TO BE NONEXISTNAT IN TEH SALES CHARTS IN 2006!!!!". Trends don't always last, y'know. Look at the N64's first year, for example. People are going to buy what looks good, and it's never going to be just one thing.

Blade, that chart is from PS2 US launch till Jan2k3. Not one year

 

[Blade]

Heh, my bad.

 

[Vince]

Ok, Johnny. Way to do a half-assed job - but hey, atleast we know you can add the numbers together.

I've composed a list of the games on the Sony PlayStation2 platform that has surpassed sales of 1 Million and that can be verified. Due to non-existent NPD data and/or verifiable numbers to a degree of accuracy beyond the Million's place - all number that have been verified at the Million (of titles sold positions) when companies release statements. Thus, all non-integer sales between n and n+1 have been rounded to n where they are verifiable and follow in a conservative manner that best suits provability and reliability of data.

As with any compilation, errors will occur - if you see them, please either state it or PM me. I have these composed in Excel, if you'd like to have it - send a PM, it's no problem at all. If you have verifiable data that conflicts with that stated here - obviously, send the link (proof) and correct numbers... lets make this accurate.



I have several structural problems with the way Johnny is conducting this basically racist argument, which in theory is the Eastern developers (the Japanese in practice) against the Western developers (Everyone else in practice). Thus, as I will later show, this is fallicious due to many factors and I, for one, don't believe that the sudden influx of 'Western" developers into the Console market from other Arena's equals a revolution and/or revelation against the Eastern developers.

Thus, counting the number of sheer titles is fallicious IMHO as there is a "slight" population disadvantage for the Eastern/Japanese developers to extract talent and resources from. Thus, the concept of "Shovelware" and other forms of "Hype" and "Flooding" of the maketplace can skew the absolute title count.

I thus propose that we utilize Adam Smith's infamous Invisable Handand allow the free-market and the allmighty dollar to be the judge of Developers and where they stand. Thus, we'll base it off of titles sold. This is freer of Publishers influences, Shovelware, and other problem concering absolute title number that I will explain after I go threw the numbers (it'll be clearer).


Thus, without further adu:

1 Ace Combat 4 - One
2 ATV Offroad Fury - One
3 ATV Offroad Fury 2 - One
4 Bond: Agent Under Fire - One
5 Crash Bandicoot: Cortex - One
6 Devil May Cry - One
7 Dragon Ball Z: Budokai - One
8 Dynasty Warrior 2 - One
9 Dynasty Warrior 3 - One
10 Dynasty Warrior 4 - One
11 Final Fantasy X - Five
12 Final Fantasy X-2 - Two (Jp only)
13 Gran Turismo 3 - Eleven
14 Grand Theft Auto 3 - Eight
15 Grand Theft Auto Vice City - Eight
16 Hitman 2: Assassin - One
17 Hot Shots Golf 3 - One
18 Jak and Daxter - One
19 Kingdom Hearts - Two
20 LOTR: TTT - Two
21 Madden 2001 - One
22 Madden 2002 - Two
23 Madden 2003 - Four
24 Max Payne - One
25 Medal of Honor Frontline - Two
26 Metal Gear Solid 2 - Five
27 Midnight Club - One
28 Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance - One
29 NBA Live 2003 - Two
30 NBA Street - One
31 NCAA 2003 - Two
32 Onimusha - Two
33 Onimusha 2 - One
34 Ratchet and Clank - One
35 Resident Evil Code Veronica - One
36 Ridge Racer? - One
37 Silent Hill 2 - One
38 Simpsons Road Rage - One
39 SOCOM - One
40 Spiderman The Movie - Two
41 Spy Hunter - One
42 SSX - One
43 Tekken Tag Tournament - One
44 The Getaway - Two
45 The Sims - Two
46 THPS3 - One
47 THPS4 One
48 Twisted Metal: Black - One
49 Virtua Fighter 4 - Two
50 Winning Eleven - Two

* This is all nicely spaced and done seperate in the Excel sheet, but due to margins and spacing problems on here you'll need to: (a) PM me for the Excel sheet, (b) Seperate them yourselves.

Western Total - 54.5
Eastern Total - 41

Western % - 57.06806283
Eastern % - 42.93193717

So, although he's [Johnny] proven that he can find a percentage by adding a bunch of simplistic number together all derived from sheer number of titles on the market - but the question is, What does this proven in light of the fact that "Eastern" developers are in practice only those that hail from Japan? A small country as it is...

Obviously, Sheer title numbers are against the Japanese as they're isolated in this basically racist potulate Johnny's stating. Thus, the very weight of the "Western" population will allow for many more developers based in that region and they can obviously produce more sheer titles.

Although, we can find a Population Equivalency where we base titles sold against Japan's population and concurrently against the "Western" world as outlined by Johnny (which is everyone else). The results are as shown (formula is endnote):

Western - 9.08333E-09
Eastern - 3.25397E-07

We can further clearify the discrepency between Eastern and Western Developers and why sheer numbers won't work by Normalizing to base 100 (Bigger is better):

Western Normalization - 100
Eastern Normalization - 3582.350371

The Next problem with Utilizing Sheer number is finacing. Eastern/Japan against the rest of the Western World is improper due to the sheer market economics and the inability to raise the necessary funds domestically for an Eastern based studio. The difference can be seen here:

Western - 2.874927467
Eastern - 11.54929577

To make this discrepency clearer, we'll again normalize the data to Base 100 (Bigger = Better):

Western Normalization - 100
Eastern Normalization - 401.7247706

So, we can safely say that the Eastern developers from Japan have just under half the present marketshare (42%) of titles that sold over 1M copies on the PS2 Platform. Thus, we can state that their absolute marketshare is very strong at just under half - and hardly shows a deminishing trend in their design ability and/or sales potential.

We've shown that they're absolutly killing the much larger Western companies/developers in terms of (titles sold)/(Develop pool) and (titles sold)/(Domestic based capital available).

If anything, this is showing that the Eastern developers are doing more with less (high effeciency) and have a much higher sucess rate concidering the racist bounds people here are imposing on them. If anything, the Western Developers have a long way to do to equal the Japanese achievements - to say anything else is wrong. Yet, this shows that theit is much more expansion room left in the Western Community.



(1) This is the number of titles sold / aggreate population (possible labor pool) and also (possible cultural sales pool).
(2) This is the number of titles sold / aggregate GNPs in Trillion USDs ['G7' = G8 - Japan]

I chose to do [titles sold] per person rather than people per title because it's easier to just say "Bigger is better" than explain why the effecieny is higher and 'East' is presently doing better with a smaller number.

(1) & (2) - Numbers from CIA Worldbook
PS. Other Sales numbers found using www.google.com

 

[zurich]

Vince,

1) I still can't understand how the fuck you're twisting "Western developers are more popular in Western countries" into a rascist slander.
2) I believe Johnny's argument was specifically rooted in American sales, hence his #s were from the US only. So why did you include worldwide, Japanese sales (other than to tip the scales)?
3) You really need to get over your habit of using Akademia-speak to add credit to your argument, because, well, it just looks like makeup (covering up imperfections).

 

[Vince]

Perhaps you should look up the definition of racist and then look at how he's breaking up people based on solely race-based lines. A great example is how he and Q deal with people like Faf - too funny.

So, perhaps you should check out that academic book called the dictionary. Hey and check the spelling of "akademia" (sic) while you're at it.

Also, perhaps you should check his comment:

Yes. We've been saying this for two years Q. It's obvious: Western developers are overtaking Japanese developers, both in sales (quickly) and in quality (slowly).

It used to be that games from Japan would be the only main hardware movers. Now it is games developed in North America and Europe that are the main hardware movers in those markets

If you work out the numbers, 75% of the Top 30 PS2 title sales are from western developer teams. It gets worse when you consider that only two Japanese developed titles (children's games) released in 2002 managed to make the list, as opposed to eight titles from western developers.

In other words, lately the trend has been getting worse for Japanese developers.

He singles out American/Domestic Sales where?

PS. How about this, I'll stop messing with 'teh' "Akademica"-speak if you teach me how to use that style in your sig and tell when when I can use 'teh' and 'l33t' in the real world....

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Vince, you're making up data. I'm using the actual NPD data. It's official data that all publishers use to make future decisions. You've lost this one buddy. Please quit before you make a complete fool of yourself.

I reiterate: 75% of the top 30 PS2 titles from launch to 01/03 in the US were made by western development houses. That's an increase of 11 points when compared to the top 30 PSX titles for the life of the PSX. Why can't you understand this?

It's hardly racist to state facts. Look at my game collection (posted in the gaming setup thread) and tell me I don't love Japanese games. Over half of my games are from Jap dev houses. You're grasping. So you're saying that calling Japanese owned companies "Japanese" is racist? Hilarious. Tell that to the Wall Street Journal, where they do that all the time. Or is the WSJ the equivalent of Mein Kampf to you for stating such obviousisms?

PS: If I had European data I would use it as well to prove the same point in Europe, since the UK charts pretty much tell the same story from week to week.

 

[Vince]

Vince, you're making up data. I'm using the actual NPD data. It's official data that all publishers use to make future decisions. You've lost this one buddy. Please quit before you make a complete fool of yourself.

Bullshit:

The top 30 PS2 games from launch through January 2003:

GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445*

If you get a red 'X', click here: http://www.stanford.edu/~moreno/images/GT3WW.jpg

Good Data Johnny, right on target. What is that... 500%+ off? That's within the standard deviation, eh?