DS or PSP

[bryanb]

The map in Metroid Hunters visually displays enemies and information that you cannot see from a FPS perspective. How exactly is that a waste of space? Sounds more like invaluable tool.

Doesn't the map/radar in Metroid Prime already do this?

You really are not getting this. Let's go over this again: the map in MP is available via a stop real time action subscreen.

No, I would be moving my right hand away from the ABXY buttons in order to hit dynamic buttons on the touch screen that select pre-defined weapon configurations. For example, is it Castlevania Circle of Moon that uses a complex dual card system for power ups? It requires going to a subscreen and then navigation with the Dpad. It sucks. It takes time. However, that COULD just be the touch of a few dynamic buttons away.

My point is that the "virtual buttons" on the screen simply represent other "buttons". You could concieveably do the same with more buttons that have that function mapped. In addition, you'd be saving screen space which is what you wanted the map on the upper screen to do in the first place.

"Conceivably mapping functions" to either of the four face buttons or the shoulder buttons which are most like being used for something else is not going to do it. You just aren't getting it.

Hand held and console gaming are both greatly limited in gameplay due to the limitations of the six or eight buttons that can be employed at any given time. Being able to expose 4, 6, 8, etc additional buttons that user can have all most instant access to without stopping the action of the game makes the game more friendly and adds more depth.

There's really not much to say here but you simply are unable to grasp the basic user interface potential of a touch screen.

 

[Ty]

You really are not getting this. Let's go over this again: the map in MP is available via a stop real time action subscreen.

Actually I was referring to the minimap/radar. Anyhow I went back to MP and yes, enemies DO appear on the radar but no, it does not show a minimap of the surrounding area. Nonetheless many games do have this ability already (minimap & radar on the HUD) and it works quite fine. Is it as useful as a full screen map that is up 24/7? No, of course not. Does it necessarily equate to compelling? No, of course not.

Btw, what did you mean with this phrase, "that you cannot see from a FPS perspective"? What can't you see from a First Person Shooter perspective exactly? Are you refering to getting feedback from the player's surrounding and not just the direction he's facing at the moment?

"Conceivably mapping functions" to either of the four face buttons or the shoulder buttons which are most like being used for something else is not going to do it. You just aren't getting it.

I guess I'm stuck on your phrase, "Dynamic UI". What exactly is "dynamic UI"? And why is it required that a touch screen be the input mechanism for such a UI?

Hand held and console gaming are both greatly limited in gameplay due to the limitations of the six or eight buttons that can be employed at any given time.

Are you a game designer by chance because you seem to be awfully limited in imagination if you feel that the number of exposed inputs explictly limits you. Yes, having too few can be problematic at times but perhaps that means your game is too complex (again, not related to depth) in either scope or UI.

Being able to expose 4, 6, 8, etc additional buttons that user can have all most instant access to without stopping the action of the game makes the game more friendly and adds more depth.

Having more buttons certainly increases combinatorial factors but again, this does not necessarily equate to "better". Now I think you're guilty of "not getting it", complex does NOT equate to "better" otherwise the best games would be on the PC. In addition, if you think MORE buttons is automatically more user friendly then I'm glad you aren't a game designer.

There's really not much to say here but you simply are unable to grasp the basic user interface potential of a touch screen.

All hail the touch screen, mightly savior of consoles.

 

[jvd]

jvd wrote:
Who would it sell to .

The psp in a 12 year old and under (i'm willing to wager even up to 20 years old) would using a ceramic baseball . Both easily broken. Most portable gamers are children under 14. I would not buy my child a psp. It would break very quickly. So that leaves 14+ market which is very small for portables .


First question that challenges your assumption. Portable "what"?

a video game console .

Because at 100$ thats all it will do. Play video games. You will need a memory stick to play mp3s on and the mp3s to listen to which cost money , you need umd movies to watch which costs money. I suppose even the games cost money.

Of course a mother would say honey why do u want t3 on umd. We can get it on dvd and u can watch it at home and then in the mini van (70% of all mini vans now come with dvd players built in(at least acording to fox five news)).

Of course parents can also say well there is so much on this thing that we are going to end up paying more money in software for it then if we got him a gba or ds . Not to mention that it doesn't look durable (eps screen)

 

[rabidrabbit]

But the PSP is targeted at the age group 18-30+, not kids.
And it is a pretty big consumer group.

 

[jvd]

But the PSP is targeted at the age group 18-30+, not kids.
And it is a pretty big consumer group.

but not for that kind of device as i pointed out ealier for several reasons .


For 50-150$ you can get a 64meg -256 meg flash mp3 player or for 250+ a 4 gig ipod mini . All of which woudl serve adults better for when they most likely use it . I.e running or walking.

for 100-500$ you can get a dvd player that will play mp3s and have a 5 inch or bigger screen and better battery life (my friends was 200$ and gets 8 hours playing movies)

So the only thing it really does well is play video games . Would that be enough for it to expand the currently small video game market of 18+ people ?

THat is the question.

The ds on the other hand will do fine in its targeted age group because

its very durable .

and it has a huge libary of games already avalible




Psp will be a great system but it only targets a small crowd which is going to be much smaller than sony though. Think psx .

 

[marconelly!]

So the only thing it really does well is play video games . Would that be enough for it to expand the currently small video game market of 18+ people ?

People from 18-34 used to be a small market for videogames in general. We all know what happened to that...

Sure, PSP capabilities for music and movie playback are not exactly stellar - that's why they are not what the device is focused on to begin with. They are features thrown into the mix because it was easy to do 'free of charge' and because, limited as they are, they do expand the usefulness of the device. I'd certainly not be any happier if they decided not to include them, and I don't see why anyone else would. If I already have PSP, I might as well use it for music listening too, and cut down on one extra device I'd bring with me on the road. Maybe not use it for that purpose all the time, but sometimes certainly.

In any case, I don't bother thinking too much if PSP will have stellar sales or if it will expand the market or whatever. Publishers who have people paid to think about those things have analyzed the situation, adopted the device and are bringing serious barrage of games for it - and that's what matters to me.

 

[rabidrabbit]

currently small video game market of 18+ people ?

It's not that small.

http://www.theesa.com/8_26_2003.html
Washington, DC (August 26th, 2003) -- A poll released today by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) and conducted by Peter D. Hart Research Associates, Inc., offers new evidence that gamers are fast becoming an increasingly diverse group, with women and players over 50 making up a larger percentage of gamers than ever before.

According to the data, a full 17% of game players are over age 50, up from 13% in 2000. Women age 18 and older now make up a larger percentage of the gaming population -- 26% -- than boys ages 6 to 17 who represent 21% of gamers. Men age 18 and over represent the largest group of gamers 38% with girls between the ages of 6 to 17 making up 12% of all gamers. The average age of game players is now 29 years old.

I agree though, that PSP might not be a suitable toy for kids below 10, or clumsy adults. But neither is a that portable DVD player.

 

[jvd]

currently small video game market of 18+ people ?

It's not that small.

http://www.theesa.com/8_26_2003.html
Washington, DC (August 26th, 2003) -- A poll released today by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) and conducted by Peter D. Hart Research Associates, Inc., offers new evidence that gamers are fast becoming an increasingly diverse group, with women and players over 50 making up a larger percentage of gamers than ever before.

According to the data, a full 17% of game players are over age 50, up from 13% in 2000. Women age 18 and older now make up a larger percentage of the gaming population -- 26% -- than boys ages 6 to 17 who represent 21% of gamers. Men age 18 and over represent the largest group of gamers 38% with girls between the ages of 6 to 17 making up 12% of all gamers. The average age of game players is now 29 years old.

I agree though, that PSP might not be a suitable toy for kids below 10, or clumsy adults. But neither is a that portable DVD player.

Rabbit . I'm sorry . I was talking about the 18+ for the mobile market.

THe mobile game market and the home console markets are very diffrent beasts .

As for the portable dvd player. At least when not in use it has built in screen protection

 

[rabidrabbit]

The mobile games market has been below 18, because there has only been Nintendo and GB until now. And that is only because of the games that are decisively profiled at that age group.
That doesn't mean that there isn't virgin territory outside Nintendo's age group (((I am a living example of that ((I might not be a virgin, but a very potential buyer of a portable games machine, but the GB games have not appealed to me (except the 2d rpg's, which I'd like to play)), because I'd rather have a device with higher-tech image and more varied games library))).

But the mobile market for MP3 and portable DVD's is certainly not the same as Game Boy market.

 

[jvd]

The mobile games market has been below 18, because there has only been Nintendo and GB until now. And that is only because of the games that are decisively profiled at that age group.
That doesn't mean that there isn't virgin territory outside Nintendo's age group (((I am a living example of that ((I might not be a virgin, but a very potential buyer of a portable games machine, but the GB games have not appealed to me (except the 2d rpg's, which I'd like to play)), because I'd rather have a device with higher-tech image and more varied games library))).

But the mobile market for MP3 and portable DVD's is certainly not the same as Game Boy market.

Yes and nintendo has tapped into most of those people .

As for the mp3 and dvd mobile markets that wont really affect the psp as it has no dvd support (umd diffrent beast and will harm it imho) and as i said for the main purpose of mp3 players the psp is ill suited for it .

I will most likely be getting a psp for x mass or mabye as an earlier b day gift depending on when it comes out next year.

mp3s and movies will never be used by me .


Its summed up by my phone.

I have a cell phone that can take pictures and play music .

I carry my cell phone with me and its very small and not a burden (which the psp will be in alot of situations)

Now i will take pics with my camera. But that will only be when something happens and I don't have my camera there for it . But if i'm going some where that i would like to take pictures at like say disney world . Then iw ill have my camera.

My phone can play music but its very limited and is a whole other format than my mp3s . So even though i have it when running. I will still have my mp3 player which is the size of my thumb with 9 hours of music on it.


I suspect that you too in 90% of cases will have the device best suited for the job with you .

edit

Not to mention that buy having my mp3 player , ds , portable dvd player I can get .

9 hours mp3 + 5 hours ds (picking a fair number since we don't know) + 8 hours for my dvd player .

Thats 22 hours of play time

THe psp will give me a max of 10.5 hours only 2 and a half if i want to play movies i assume and some where between for games .

 

[marconelly!]

mp3s and movies will never be used by me.

Well, that's fine, noone is forcing you to use it, and I doubt *anyone* will be buying PSP first and foremost for watching movies and playing music, much like I doubt people are buying PS2 primarily so that they can watch DVDs - yet it comes in handy for those who don't have a DVD player already, or have two TVs for example. I'm just saying that not having movie and music playback on PSP is nigh retarded, when the machine by it's nature is fitted to be able to play both, without sacrificing anything about it's primary function.

 

[PC-Engine]

i do say so. i've seen it time and again, even in the face of clearly superior technology and/or gameplay. people still bought psx when the dreamcast was doing well. the release of the xbox and gamecube combined could not stop the momentum that ps2 had.

And I can use your same argument against the PSP. All other superior portables failed while the GB line succeeded. If you want to talk momentum look at the GB line and it's game library. The DS is backwards compatible.

 

[jvd]

i do say so. i've seen it time and again, even in the face of clearly superior technology and/or gameplay. people still bought psx when the dreamcast was doing well. the release of the xbox and gamecube combined could not stop the momentum that ps2 had.

And I can use your same argument against the PSP. All other superior portables failed while the GB line succeeded. If you want to talk momentum look at the GB line and it's game library. The DS is backwards compatible.

right and appeals to the larger audiance .

Nintendo has already shown that it can not only sell newer versions of the same hardware to the same people. But they can also expand thier market share while doing it .

Now we have basicly a nintendo 64 + gba sp combined . With all of the gameboy library adn I believe they are set to sell this again to all those who have bought gameboys , gbcs , gbas , gba sps and expand thier share .

 

[StefanS]

During E3, Satoru Iwata (President of Nintendo NCL) informed Reuters that Nintendo is concerned about not having a steady source of LCD displays. Its largest provider of handheld screens, Sharp, expressed concern over the ?challenge? of a dual-screen handheld.

"Of course we have no intention of taking a huge loss in the beginning, but I'm not sure if we can efficiently boost profit from the start like we did with the Game Boy Advance, but this is something I think we can repair with time," Iwata said.

Mr. Iwata reiterated Nintendo?s promise of an ?affordable? Nintendo DS launch price and stated that Nintendo will discuss shipment targets on May 27th.

Link

 

[jvd]

During E3, Satoru Iwata (President of Nintendo NCL) informed Reuters that Nintendo is concerned about not having a steady source of LCD displays. Its largest provider of handheld screens, Sharp, expressed concern over the ?challenge? of a dual-screen handheld.

"Of course we have no intention of taking a huge loss in the beginning, but I'm not sure if we can efficiently boost profit from the start like we did with the Game Boy Advance, but this is something I think we can repair with time," Iwata said.

Mr. Iwata reiterated Nintendo?s promise of an ?affordable? Nintendo DS launch price and stated that Nintendo will discuss shipment targets on May 27th.

Link

i think this has been known for awhile .

At least i have been aware of it .

Now this is through contacts that I have so please take it with a grain of salt.

But the current cost of the ds is around 143$ usd . If that is correct then they can sell the system for a 150$ and just make money off the games .

The current cost of the psp is around 271$ usd .

as i said thse are through contacts and while it may be 100% correct when i was said it might not be so anymore .

 

[Legion]

hm... PSP.I just fail to see what inovation will come from dual screen,excepted 'jerky eye' troubles for our kids ...

lol increased ADD

 

[London Geezer]

Haven't read all the replies since i left, but i've flicked through quickly just to get an idea.

I think Sony IS taking a huge risk with the PSP, not only because it's a whole new market they are venturing in, not only they are going to compete with people who have single-handedly dominated the same market for the last 15 years or so (how old is the Gameboy now?), but it seems the PSP is aimed at an audience which is not usually connected to this market.

It seems they are targeting the PSP to the same people who would buy a PS2 or an Xbox.

The thing is, the handheld market is as big as it is because millions and millions of little kids buy a GB (whatever iteration of it) and use it like a toy. And play Pokemon.

There surely will be millions of 14+ year old gamers willing to buy the PSP, it is however very risky from Sony's part to try and change the target audience of a whole market they have never touched even before entering the market itself.

It will be interesting to see how it goes. Personally, and i'm older than most casual gamers, i can't afford a PSP, and millions of other gamers won't be able to either. Especially the younger ones. As good as it is, as many things as it does, it's just a big investment.

In the meantime Nintendo can pretty much sit on their asses, release DS, be aware that millions will buy it whatever it is, it's backward compatible so they're safe there too.

Even iPOD, as successful as it is, has "only" sold around 20million units (or less?). And it the iPod.

20 million units (and thats a very optimistic figure for PSP, unless the price is severly cut) is not going to push into Nintendo's market share too much.

 

[jvd]

hm... PSP.I just fail to see what inovation will come from dual screen,excepted 'jerky eye' troubles for our kids ...

lol increased ADD

what and the kids flipping from movie to game to mp3 wont cause add


London boy.

DOn't forget about how inflated the gameboy numbers are because of rebuying .

I'm not talking about rebuying new versions. I'm talking about rebuying lost or damaged ones of the same kind. My cousin is on his 4th game boy. 2 game boy colors , 1 game boy advance and now he has a gba sp.

1 of which he destroyed by not taking care of it. 1 was destroyed because he though he could put playdough where the carts go , the gba was stolen and well he still has his sp.

Hell i broke a game boy when i was little and my parents bought me another.

I'm sure this happens with a ton of people



The ipod sold that well because it was the best mp3 player out there when mp3 players were the it thing to have.

Its also been about 2-3 years now since they came out .

You really coldn't find a mp3 player with that storage for that price and function untill recently that wasn't an ipod .

 

[London Geezer]

hm... PSP.I just fail to see what inovation will come from dual screen,excepted 'jerky eye' troubles for our kids ...

lol increased ADD

what and the kids flipping from movie to game to mp3 wont cause add


London boy.

DOn't forget about how inflated the gameboy numbers are because of rebuying .

I'm not talking about rebuying new versions. I'm talking about rebuying lost or damaged ones of the same kind. My cousin is on his 4th game boy. 2 game boy colors , 1 game boy advance and now he has a gba sp.

1 of which he destroyed by not taking care of it. 1 was destroyed because he though he could put playdough where the carts go , the gba was stolen and well he still has his sp.

Hell i broke a game boy when i was little and my parents bought me another.

I'm sure this happens with a ton of people



The ipod sold that well because it was the best mp3 player out there when mp3 players were the it thing to have.

Its also been about 2-3 years now since they came out .

You really coldn't find a mp3 player with that storage for that price and function untill recently that wasn't an ipod .

About the inflated GB numbers, yeah but that only shows that people love the thing so much they are willing to keep buying it if they break it even 10 times. Still a point against Sony. How many would re-buy PSP 4 times?? :?

About iPod, yeah that's what i mean, iPod is the best selling MP3 player out there, its THE iPod, and yet it still only sold less than 20 million units in 3 years (u said). 20 million PSPs are not going to damage Nintendo too much.

 

[StefanS]

i think this has been known for awhile .

At least i have been aware of it .

Now this is through contacts that I have so please take it with a grain of salt.

But the current cost of the ds is around 143$ usd . If that is correct then they can sell the system for a 150$ and just make money off the games .

If your contacts are right, than those quotes from Iwata could indicate 150$ as launch price. That'd be nice.