Digital Foundry: Microsoft Xbox One X & S supports Freesync 2 [2017-04-11]

[Metal_Spirit]

There is something wrong here. I,m not defining any source device by its HDMI version. I'm stating that people are making claims about the HDMI version of scorpio that are not stated in the Eurogamer article (if anything 2.0 is stated several times), based on features that can be implemented on HDMI 2.0

I do not know wich HDMI version Scorpio has, but since HDMI 2.1 is not available yet, and those features can be used on 2.0, a version mentioned on the article, I dont think stating 2.1 as a fact is correct as it may be misleading on the true console capabilities.

If anyone is trying to defining a device by its HDMI version are those who are stating that version as factual, because as I see it, warning that a car beeing red doesnt make it a ferrari is not defining a car.

As for the PS4 it has a very versatile version of HDMI 1.4. HDMI implementations vary, and some are more versatile than others (as stated on HDMI's page, firmware upgrades depend on the makers implementation). PS3 started as 1.3 and got upgraded to the last 1.4 version (in this case only features appeared, as bandwidth remained the same between versions).
PS4 never got upgraded to HDMI 2.0, it got upgraded to a 2.0 feature that only works because the resolution is limited to 1080p, so there was unused bandwidth in 1.4.
Xbox One HDMI doesnt seem to be this versatile, as it never got upgraded.

 

[mrcorbo]

There is something wrong here. I,m not defining any source device by its HDMI version. I'm stating that people are making claims about the HDMI version of scorpio that are not stated in the Eurogamer article (if anything 2.0 is stated several times), based on features that can be implemented on HDMI 2.0

If the feature is implemented according to the HDMI 2.1 spec then saying that Scorpio supports HDMI 2.1 VFR is absolutely correct. Saying that Scorpio supports Freesync over HDMI for versions of HDMI prior to 2.1 is also correct. That's why both are mentioned.

I do not know wich HDMI version Scorpio has, but since HDMI 2.1 is not available yet, and those features can be used on 2.0, a version mentioned on the article, I dont think stating 2.1 as a fact is correct as it may be misleading on the true console capabilities.

Again, I haven't seen any such confusion over the "true console capabilities". If I did, I may think it was as big of a deal as you do. What additional capabilities are you are afraid people are going to think Scorpio has when they say it supports HDMI 2.1?

If anyone is trying to defining a device by its HDMI version are those who are stating that version as factual, because as I see it, warning that a car beeing red doesnt make it a ferrari is not defining a car.

And again, unless there is a specific indication that when people use HDMI 2.1 they are implying that it supports any HDMI 2.1 features beyond VFR, then I don't see the problem. It's just shorthand.

As for the PS4 it has a very versatile version of HDMI 1.4. HDMI implementations vary, and some are more versatile than others (as stated on HDMI's page, firmware upgrades depend on the makers implementation). PS3 started as 1.3 and got upgraded to the last 1.4 version (in this case only features appeared, as bandwidth remained the same between versions).
PS4 never got upgraded to HDMI 2.0, it got upgraded to a 2.0 feature that only works because the resolution is limited to 1080p, so there was unused bandwidth in 1.4.
Xbox One HDMI doesnt seem to be this versatile, as it never got upgraded.

PS4's "versatility" in this regard was due to using the Displayport output on Liverpool, which supported HDR, instead of the HDMI output, which didn't, and then using a bridge chip to convert to HDMI. The bridge chip was programmable, so they were able to update it to pass through the HDR information in a compliant way. The Xbox One didn't use this setup, so was stuck with the feature set of AMD's on-chip HDMI.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

HDMI 2.1 would allow HDR 4K60 at 4:4:4 color format, which would be nice, of course you also need that support in the TV.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

HDMI 2.1 would allow HDR 4K60 at 4:4:4 color format, which would be nice, of course you also need that support in the TV.

Exactly the missinterpretation I think this can lead to!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Project Scorpio can't be labeled HDMI 2.1 yet as the spec hasn't been finalized yet. Which means that it can't have a HDMI certified display controller yet. Which doesn't mean it can't have an HDMI controller that could in the future be certified for HDMI 2.1 once the specification is finalized. It only means that until the spec is finalized you can't call it an HDMI 2.1 device.

This doesn't mean it's going to be an HDMI 2.1 device but it also doesn't meant that it's not going to be an HDMI 2.1 device.

Regards,
SB

 

[mrcorbo]

HDMI 2.1 would allow HDR 4K60 at 4:4:4 color format, which would be nice, of course you also need that support in the TV.

Exactly the missinterpretation I think this can lead to!

Well, I won't argue that people using precise language isn't preferred and they should be saying Scorpio supports HDMI 2.1 VFR instead of that it supports HDMI 2.1 (unless we find out that it is, in fact, fully compliant with all the required features of that spec). So, unless I want continue to argue with you about how you should feel about people's imprecise usage (which would be silly) I guess I'll leave it there.

 

[Cyan]

You might regret this. *Good* HDR is a really impressive and obvious upgrade over what we have now. You may have to have the differences between VRR and standard displays demonstrated with side-by-side videos and with 4K you may need to be sitting right in front of the display to notice the differences. The benefits of HDR you can see immediately, from across the room.

well, I kinda understand what you mean. The issue with a 4K Freesync 2 HDR monitor might be the price for me. My budget is limited if I want to get a new decent PC or Scorpio /that depends/ and my gf would get into missus mode, dangerous and intractable. That is going to happen if I go shopping and come back with 1500€ spent on gadgets.

 

[mrcorbo]

well, I kinda understand what you mean. The issue with a 4K Freesync 2 HDR monitor might be the price for me. My budget is limited if I want to get a new decent PC or Scorpio /that depends/ and my gf would get into missus mode, dangerous and intractable. That is going to happen if I go shopping and come back with 1500€ spent on gadgets.

Understandable. My caution would be, maybe don't spend so much on what you get now that you would be reluctant to move along/re-purpose it when an HDR option is available at a price you find reasonable.

 

[tuna]

Yes.

https://hardforum.com/threads/4k-60hz-4-4-4-hdmi-2-0-tv-database.1837209/

Early in the HDMI 2.0 generation HDCP 2.2 chips couldn't do 4:4:4 chroma at 4k60 over HDMI 2.0, so you'd either have to drop to 4k30 or do 4k60 at 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 Chroma.

That depends on the color depth:

From http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx :

"Does HDMI 2.0 support BT.2020 (rec.2020) colorimetry?
Yes. HDMI 2.0 includes support for BT.2020 Colorimetry with 10 or more bits of color depth.
Video Formats defined in BT.2020 and supported by HDMI 2.0 specification:
– 2160p, 10/12 bits, 24/25/30Hz, RGB/4:2:2/4:4:4
– 2160p, 10/12 bits, 50/60Hz, 4:2:0/4:2:2
"

You can also look at the table below this, couldn't paste it easily here.

 

[mrcorbo]

That depends on the color depth:

From http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_faq.aspx :

"Does HDMI 2.0 support BT.2020 (rec.2020) colorimetry?
Yes. HDMI 2.0 includes support for BT.2020 Colorimetry with 10 or more bits of color depth.
Video Formats defined in BT.2020 and supported by HDMI 2.0 specification:
– 2160p, 10/12 bits, 24/25/30Hz, RGB/4:2:2/4:4:4
– 2160p, 10/12 bits, 50/60Hz, 4:2:0/4:2:2
"

You can also look at the table below this, couldn't paste it easily here.

According to the spec, yes, but what he's talking about was some early HDMI 2.0 TVs not being able to do 4K60 @ 4:4:4 at all, at any bitdepth. It was so prominent of a problem rtings used to test for it.

 

[tuna]

The TV I had before this one would accept a 4K60 signal, but the processor inside didn't have the bandwidth to handle it, so it would drop every other frame.

That is a crappy TV! Do you have the model?

 

[tuna]

According to the spec, yes, but what he's talking about was some early HDMI 2.0 TVs not being able to do 4K60 @ 4:4:4 at all, at any bitdepth. It was so prominent of a problem rtings used to test for it.

Do you mean that they could not display it or not receive the signal?

 

[tuna]

Many devices declare them themselves as HDMI XX or USB YY because they are electrically compatible and the controller can communication with other devices the specification requires. It definitely does not mean all features of the standard is supported by the host hardware.

I do not think they have to. What if you have a 21.9 panel that supports HDMI 2.0 but do not have a 2K vertical resolution. If that panel can scale or crop the images so it fits the panel it would still support HDMI 2.0. The same applies with colors etc.

 

[mrcorbo]

That is a crappy TV! Do you have the model?

Hisense 50H7GB1. There were revisions of this model that had the problem fixed, but mine wasn't one of those. I actually ended up selling that at a loss so I could buy Hisense's follow-up model the 50H8C (only because it was ridiculously cheap and handled 4k60 properly). This TV redeemed the brand in my eyes and perfectly fills the stop-gap role I was looking for when I bought the first one. It was an absolute steal at $380.

 

[mrcorbo]

Do you mean that they could not display it or not receive the signal?

Not sure about every case, I know some were able to be sent the signal, but would not handle it properly. Lot's of screenshots of text in various colors showing chroma subsampling artifacts.

 

[Cyan]

Understandable. My caution would be, maybe don't spend so much on what you get now that you would be reluctant to move along/re-purpose it when an HDR option is available at a price you find reasonable.

are you keeping your HiSense TV for the next generation of consoles or are you thinking about purchasing a new one?

http://www.windowscentral.com/best-4k-hdr-tv-xbox-one-s-project-scorpio (some fine 4K HDR TVs)

As for me, I am almost completely sure I am getting a 4K Freesync 2 monitor. That tip of yours sounds quite reasonable -maybe a 300€ would fit the bill until a HDR monitor comes along. Plus one can wait for when HDR on monitors become more common, maybe in the upcoming months where I want to purchase a new PC or console prices are going to drop and more companies start making 4k FreeSync HDR monitors, more competition=better prices.

As with TVs making sure a monitor is HDR10 is going to be a PITA.

 

[mrcorbo]

are you keeping your HiSense TV for the next generation of consoles or are you thinking about purchasing a new one?

I'm in no hurry. The TV I have does 4K and HDR. Next TV will be bigger, 65" or 70" have VRR, get eye-meltingly bright, have all of the colors, and come in under $2,000. Until then, I'm good.

 

[dobwal]

There is something wrong here. I,m not defining any source device by its HDMI version. I'm stating that people are making claims about the HDMI version of scorpio that are not stated in the Eurogamer article (if anything 2.0 is stated several times), based on features that can be implemented on HDMI 2.0

I do not know wich HDMI version Scorpio has, but since HDMI 2.1 is not available yet, and those features can be used on 2.0, a version mentioned on the article, I dont think stating 2.1 as a fact is correct as it may be misleading on the true console capabilities.

If anyone is trying to defining a device by its HDMI version are those who are stating that version as factual, because as I see it, warning that a car beeing red doesnt make it a ferrari is not defining a car.

As for the PS4 it has a very versatile version of HDMI 1.4. HDMI implementations vary, and some are more versatile than others (as stated on HDMI's page, firmware upgrades depend on the makers implementation). PS3 started as 1.3 and got upgraded to the last 1.4 version (in this case only features appeared, as bandwidth remained the same between versions).
PS4 never got upgraded to HDMI 2.0, it got upgraded to a 2.0 feature that only works because the resolution is limited to 1080p, so there was unused bandwidth in 1.4.
Xbox One HDMI doesnt seem to be this versatile, as it never got upgraded.

It is not stated in the DF article but is listed in the Gamasutra article as "HDMI VRR support (when ratified)" and is listed separately from FreeSync which means they are explicitly planning to support HDMI 2.1 specs when it comes to VRR. They also claim to be working with many of the TV manufacturers to allow support across as many TVs as possible. So I doubt that means MS is working to ratify some third party standard to bring VRR over HDMI 2.0 support widely across the TV space.

I am not sure why anyone needs to parse out HDMI 2.1 compliant with HDMI 2.1 VRR complaint especially here when it comes to games because I doubt any of us expect HDMI 2.1 compliant to mean something like 8K60 or 4K120 games or even dynamic HDR in games.

 

[dobwal]

As with TVs making sure a monitor is HDR10 is going to be a PITA.

FreeSync 2 certification requires monitors to support HDR.

 

[Cyan]

FreeSync 2 certification requires monitors to support HDR.

is FreeSync 2 backwards compatible with the original FreeSync? I mean, if you buy a FreeSync 2 device like a new PC or console that support it, and you have a FreeSync monitor, you can still get the basic benefits of Freesync sans HDR and so on, right?

Except for a big surprise I wont be getting a HDR monitor any time soon, especially because of price and 'cos HDR quality varies and reading carefully between the lines seems a must.