Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2013]

[Globalisateur]

Power cables are all broken on PS4. It lacks subsample detail which makes a huge difference on fine objects, and was extremely obvious in the DF comparison pictures. Edge quality may be comparable (haven't seen it in motion) but PS4's AA isn't really similar to 4xMSAA in overall quality where the AA matters most.

I said fairly similar to PC comparatively to X1 and Wii U version. I know 4xMSAA is still better and I would not want to argue with you or with pjbliverpool on that matter.

Most people who saw the comparisons thought the same. Just that PS4 and PC are towering over the rest. But I know in motion (and even on pics) 4xMSAA is better due to its multisampling method.

No. Because the PC version doesn't have forced FXAA. What you are most likely looking at is TXAA which is a FAR superior AA solution to whatever the PS4 is using.

I didn't want to argue, just that in some the those pics, PC looks a bit blurrier than PS4. Digital foundry just said they used 4xMSAA, no TXAA. So I supposed DF did apply some additionnal FXAA effect but maybe I am wrong. But the slight blur on PC is obvious here compared to PS4 and for me it is unmistakably FXAA type blur.

Spoiler

I am happy to know PC users can remove the FXAA. I suppose it was meant to remove the transparent aliasing not taken care by MSAA.

But between SMAA or MSAA/FXAA I would still prefer SMAA mainly because I am partial to sharpness on games. The best would be SMAA 4x, SMAA combined with 4xMSAA and temporal aliasing but unfortunately nobody seems to know this AA even exists.

 

[scf]

DF reviews video sharing features of PS4 and X1/PC http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-next-gen-game-broadcasting-tech-analysis

 

[pjbliverpool]

Yeah I was well impressed with GeForce Experience when I tried it recently on AC4.

 

[Arwin]

Tested it with PS4 and AC4 it was very painless, very nice. Good foundation to build on. Hopefully we'll see more expansions like youtube support for uploading video and streaming.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I didn't want to argue, just that in some the those pics, PC looks a bit blurrier than PS4. Digital foundry just said they used 4xMSAA, no TXAA. So I supposed DF did apply some additionnal FXAA effect but maybe I am wrong. But the slight blur on PC is obvious here compared to PS4 and for me it is unmistakably FXAA type blur.

Spoiler

I stand corrected. While you can't turn FXAA plus MSAA on simultaneously in this game, for some reason, MSAA DOES produce a softer image than SMAA. In fact EVERY AA mode produces a softer image than SMAA in this game. Weird!

That's not to say the AA reduction isn't much better than SMAA at the higher settings though (resulting in better image overall IMO), but it will come at the cost of a tiny bit or sharpness. Note the sharpness of SMAA is almost identical to no AA. Here are the screenshots to back this up if anyone's interested. Although do bare in mind that aliasing is a lot more apparent in motion so SMAA and 4xMSAA are getting a slightly unfair advantage from the still shots. If you want the full resolution you'll need to double click each image and choose the full res mode in photobucket.

Spoiler

 

[zed]

In fact EVERY AA mode produces a softer image than SMAA in this game. Weird!

I dont know what SMAA is but AA does blur an image so I dont know about wierd. And yes the PS4 ScreenShot above does look better than the PC SS. BUT if the camera moves 99% likely then the PC will look better

 

[pjbliverpool]

But that's just it, SMAA is just another for of post process AA and doesn't blur the image at all while MSAA shouldn't be producing this kind of blur since as I understood it (and I could easily be wrong) it works only on edges and should thus have no effect at all on textures. SMAA really is pretty awesome though, the quality jump over FXAA is huge while the performance hit is very minor. It may not have the quality of 4xMSAA and above but the quality/performance is through the roof. Its only approached by 2xTXAA IMO.

 

[forumaccount]

But that's just it, SMAA is just another for of post process AA and doesn't blur the image at all while MSAA shouldn't be producing this kind of blur since as I understood it (and I could easily be wrong) it works only on edges and should thus have no effect at all on textures. SMAA really is pretty awesome though, the quality jump over FXAA is huge while the performance hit is very minor. It may not have the quality of 4xMSAA and above but the quality/performance is through the roof. Its only approached by 2xTXAA IMO.

SMAA is indeed awesome but I wouldn't label the performance hit minor. I don't think the reason that the first crop of new-gen console titles almost all shipped using FXAA is because they just didn't try SMAA. At least I surely hope it's not.

Anyway, it does a very nice job but can't clean up everything. I hope in a few years some set of techniques will emerge such that we can consider AA a solved problem.

 

[-tkf-]

DF reviews video sharing features of PS4 and X1/PC http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-next-gen-game-broadcasting-tech-analysis

Looking forward to having an easier way to get the captures off the PS4 harddrive, and imho it's just a question of time before it can be done, there shouldn't be any copyright issues, right?

 

[pjbliverpool]

I didn't want to argue, just that in some the those pics, PC looks a bit blurrier than PS4. Digital foundry just said they used 4xMSAA, no TXAA. So I supposed DF did apply some additionnal FXAA effect but maybe I am wrong. But the slight blur on PC is obvious here compared to PS4 and for me it is unmistakably FXAA type blur.

Spoiler

It seems I owe you an apology Globalisateur. Despite it being impossible to manually set FXAA and any other AA mode through the games menu's it turns out that AC4 IS applying FXAA automatically in combination with MSAA, CSAA and TXAA whenever you select those options:

http://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/...-iv-black-flag-graphics-and-performance-guide

Apparently this is to help deal with transparency aliasing which SMAA, MSAA and it's kin don't deal with but the trade off is a slightly softer image. Personally, at the higher AA settings I think it's worth it over the sharper look of SMAA but if you really want to turn off FXAA completely and just run with say 4xMSAA, you'd need to turn AA off completely in the game and set the AA mode through your drivers. Not ideal.

@forumaccount: It's pretty efficient. Here are some performance measures I took in a particular scene on my PC at different AA modes:

No AA: 55
FXAA: 53
SMAA: 50
MSAA 4x: 45
CSAA 16x: 31
TXAA 2x: 43
TXAA 4x: 39

Of course everything after SMAA is both FXAA and that AA mode so the performance hit is greater than if that AA mode were running alone. TXAA 4x + FXAA basically gives you bullshot quality as you can see from my earlier screenshots.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Looking forward to having an easier way to get the captures off the PS4 harddrive, and imho it's just a question of time before it can be done, there shouldn't be any copyright issues, right?

IP owners have the right to refuse broadcast of their content. We've seen it happen with some games on YT. It depends on the company and content, but there's little reason for most games to be withheld from broadcast as it's free advertising. Any game being censored is likely a turkey.

 

[Cyan]

It seems I owe you an apology Globalisateur. Despite it being impossible to manually set FXAA and any other AA mode through the games menu's it turns out that AC4 IS applying FXAA automatically in combination with MSAA, CSAA and TXAA whenever you select those options:

http://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/...-iv-black-flag-graphics-and-performance-guide

Apparently this is to help deal with transparency aliasing which SMAA, MSAA and it's kin don't deal with but the trade off is a slightly softer image. Personally, at the higher AA settings I think it's worth it over the sharper look of SMAA but if you really want to turn off FXAA completely and just run with say 4xMSAA, you'd need to turn AA off completely in the game and set the AA mode through your drivers. Not ideal.

@forumaccount: It's pretty efficient. Here are some performance measures I took in a particular scene on my PC at different AA modes:

No AA: 55
FXAA: 53
SMAA: 50
MSAA 4x: 45
CSAA 16x: 31
TXAA 2x: 43
TXAA 4x: 39

Of course everything after SMAA is both FXAA and that AA mode so the performance hit is greater than if that AA mode were running alone. TXAA 4x + FXAA basically gives you bullshot quality as you can see from my earlier screenshots.

I can tell you right off the bat that the most accurate AA I've seen in a console game -I mean one I've personally played- is the one Crytek used in Ryse.

It looks like "real life" most of the time, jaggie-less. I wonder if it is the in your post, I don't know what's the name of the AA tech Ryse uses.

From your list and from the top of my head I'd say either TXAA or CSAA. No promises that those are correct though.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I can tell you right off the bat that the most accurate AA I've seen in a console game -I mean one I've personally played- is the one Crytek used in Ryse.

It looks like "real life" most of the time, jaggie-less. I wonder if it is the in your post, I don't know what's the name of the AA tech Ryse uses.

From your list and from the top of my head I'd say either TXAA or CSAA. No promises that those are correct though.

It's certainly neither TXAA or CSAA as both are Nvidia technologies. And both would be far too performance limiting on a console in the configurations I posted above. TXAA 2x or CSAA 8x may be feasible though. Realistically though it's more likely to be some kind of post process solution that's similar to SMAA. Your perceived perfection of it is probably just a function of the graphics being generally forgiving of aliasing (a lack of cables, fences, wires, etc... plus relatively few high contrast straight edges) along with viewing on the relatively small FOV of a TV. DOn't get me wrong, I've watched the YT gameplay vids and the solution is excellent but I wouldn't say it's bullshot quality, at least not on a big screen monitor from a couple of feet away.

 

[jlippo]

I can tell you right off the bat that the most accurate AA I've seen in a console game -I mean one I've personally played- is the one Crytek used in Ryse.

It looks like "real life" most of the time, jaggie-less. I wonder if it is the in your post, I don't know what's the name of the AA tech Ryse uses.

From your list and from the top of my head I'd say either TXAA or CSAA. No promises that those are correct though.

It's quite possible that they use something like SMAA with improved temporal component to reduce flickering.
Also their comments on rendering in 900p and upscale during upsample does imply that they resolve AA solution directly to 1080p. (Similar to dust 514)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The CryEngine solution was described as a post effect with temporal sampling IIRC. Add in the low contrast as mentioned, and the overall slight blur, it produces a very cinematic feel.

 

[Scott_Arm]

The CryEngine solution was described as a post effect with temporal sampling IIRC. Add in the low contrast as mentioned, and the overall slight blur, it produces a very cinematic feel.

Ryse is supposed to be using SMAA 1TX, which is described here:

http://www.crytek.com/download/Sousa_Graphics_Gems_CryENGINE3.pdf

 

[KKRT]

The CryEngine solution was described as a post effect with temporal sampling IIRC. Add in the low contrast as mentioned, and the overall slight blur, it produces a very cinematic feel.

From T1x description it doesnt seem that they have any additional blurring going on, its just same type of sampling as T2x, just with much more frames blends and better averaging.

Maybe Ryse blur comes from upscale + shading AA solutions?

 

[Globalisateur]

It seems I owe you an apology Globalisateur. Despite it being impossible to manually set FXAA and any other AA mode through the games menu's it turns out that AC4 IS applying FXAA automatically in combination with MSAA, CSAA and TXAA whenever you select those options:

http://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/...-iv-black-flag-graphics-and-performance-guide

Apparently this is to help deal with transparency aliasing which SMAA, MSAA and it's kin don't deal with but the trade off is a slightly softer image. Personally, at the higher AA settings I think it's worth it over the sharper look of SMAA but if you really want to turn off FXAA completely and just run with say 4xMSAA, you'd need to turn AA off completely in the game and set the AA mode through your drivers. Not ideal.

@forumaccount: It's pretty efficient. Here are some performance measures I took in a particular scene on my PC at different AA modes:

No AA: 55
FXAA: 53
SMAA: 50
MSAA 4x: 45
CSAA 16x: 31
TXAA 2x: 43
TXAA 4x: 39

Of course everything after SMAA is both FXAA and that AA mode so the performance hit is greater than if that AA mode were running alone. TXAA 4x + FXAA basically gives you bullshot quality as you can see from my earlier screenshots.

No need to apologize. I wasn't offended at all. I just got lucky with my guesses.

Great job with your AC4 screenshots By the way! On your SMAA pic I noticed some supersampling (like 2X or 4X) with it. Again it's just a guess. Because the ropes of the ship are too similar to 4xMSAA and too different (super sampled, too good) compared to NoAA. I can tell because I took the noAA pic and applied pure SMAA on it (with the tool from the SMAA creators) and it was very different (less good) from the in game SMAA you posted.

Here your original SMAA applied in game:

Spoiler

Now pure SMAA applied in your NoAA pic:

Spoiler

It means that with games, you never know which injectors are combined with one AA. Apparently FXAA is combined with MSAA, TXAA and maybe some MSAA is combined with SMAA. In the game Arma too, I witnessed that FXAA was combined with a sharpen injector.

And about the very slight blur in Ryse I do think it comes from the upscaling. Because SMAA 1tx should not blur the image.

SMAA is so cheap & efficient with such a sharp image! I hope more and more devs on consoles will use it. Ryse and AC4 are just the beginning! Yes some high contrasted pixels may still shimmer, but I prefer some shimmering here and there than a 100% blurred game.

 

[shredenvain]

I dont think the blur that you guys are talking about is coming from upscaling in Ryse. I play Ryse on a 32 inch tv at 720p. There isnt any upscaling going on when I play. The only blur that I see in Ryse occurs with quick camera movements. I think it is intentional motion blur for cinematic purposes.

 

[HTupolev]

I play Ryse on a 32 inch tv at 720p. There isnt any upscaling going on when I play.

"I do not play with an upscaled image."

The only blur that I see in Ryse occurs with quick camera movements. I think it is intentional motion blur for cinematic purposes.

"I do not see the blur you guys are blaming on upscaling."

I dont think the blur that you guys are talking about is coming from upscaling in Ryse.

"Therefore I think the upscaling isn't causing blur."


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