Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

When I play a game from 10 year ago I realize how dogshit MSAA was in handling pixel shading. Rise of the Tomb Raider (pre-DLSS) and Arkham Knight are two prominent examples. Their image quality is just a sea of pixels blinking in and out of existence, because MSAA/FXAA are just wholly unsuited to modern pixel shaders.

They're not quite 10 years old 😛

And they're two games from hundreds that released.

Yes, even older games, as Alex pointed out, fare just fine with other AA methods, simply because they don't extensively use pixel shading. But any modern game using specular shading needs some form of temporal, or just massively brute-forcing it with SSAA. Older games looked 'cleaner' because you're asking far less of their AA solutions.

Forza Horizon 5 looks fine with MSAA enabled.

Nah, at least for the PC, I think it should always be an option. We don't know what the future will hold, there may be an injectable form of AA that stomps whatever method the game originally shipped with.

As I've said, I've started to turn it all off now and go for a raw image.

It's surprising how much detail was hiding behind the Vaseline.
 
I don't agree with that.

MSAA was consistent, you knew the quality you were getting and got that same edge treatment equality regardless of the game.

The same can't be said for TAA, where it ranges from clean, sharp and crisp to downright awful, blurry and ghosty.

TSAA is certainly not 'clearly' superior as it varies per game.

And I've started playing games with TAA turned off as I've found a new found appreciation for the extra sharpness and raw look of games.

Not that I totally disagree with you, but a certain amount of these issues can be attributed to poor flat panel or monitor calibration (or even higher-end vs lower-end sets), which often exacerbates AA effectiveness or presentation.

Certain flat panels and monitors have additional chips and features that add additional post-processing effects to imagery, especially those offering "gaming enhancements" features beyond increased refresh rate improvements and synchronization. I can bet the vast majority of gamers (especially console gamers) just simply use the default factory settings, or game enhancements features improperly or at the wrong time.

And truth be told, TAA looks quite nice on my TVs (especially on my 86' 8K LG), since I do a lot of my gaming from a couch or bed. Plus, at my age, ghosting is feature now, courtesy of my eye's 👀
 
^Great vid by Olie! I was curious about that LCD upgrade for my original Deck. I'll just be holding off for now until the Deck 2. I'm satisfied as it is.

Alex dropped his TAA video. Exceptional job as usual!

now I understand why games had such a clean AA even with AA disabled when running at 240Hz on my old 240Hz monitor (I loved that monitor, too bad the dead pixels, had to return it ;/). The jaggies disappeared once everything was in motion, everything looked so clean. Also, @Silent_Buddha commented something along those lines.
 
Last edited:
When I play a game from 10 year ago I realize how dogshit MSAA was in handling pixel shading. Rise of the Tomb Raider (pre-DLSS) and Arkham Knight are two prominent examples. Their image quality is just a sea of pixels blinking in and out of existence, because MSAA/FXAA are just wholly unsuited to modern pixel shaders.

Yes, even older games, as Alex pointed out, fare just fine with other AA methods, simply because they don't extensively use pixel shading. But any modern game using specular shading needs some form of temporal, or just massively brute-forcing it with SSAA. Older games looked 'cleaner' because you're asking far less of their AA solutions.




Nah, at least for the PC, I think it should always be an option. We don't know what the future will hold, there may be an injectable form of AA that stomps whatever method the game originally shipped with.
As far as I’m aware, Rise of the Tomb Raider doesn’t have MSAA. It has SMAA and SSAA.

Arkham Knight doesn’t have MSAA either from what I recall but I’m not 100% sure.
 
As far as I’m aware, Rise of the Tomb Raider doesn’t have MSAA. It has SMAA and SSAA.

Arkham Knight doesn’t have MSAA either from what I recall but I’m not 100% sure.
MSAA wouldn't do much regardless. It only works well in games with very low poly counts and, as already pointed out, minimal shading. It's a technology that should stay dead. SGSSAA though would be a welcome return as an option for high end GPUs.
 
Last edited:
MSAA wouldn't do much regardless. It only works well in games with very low poly counts and, as already pointed out, minimal shading. It's a technology that should stay dead. SGSSAA though would be a welcome return as an option for high end GPUs.

MSAA+TrSSAA is still very, very good in modern games.
 
MSAA+TrSSAA is still very, very good in modern games.
Which modern games? Only one I have personally compared is FH 5 where TAA looks unquestionably better while running much faster. This is also one of the slower TAA solutions on the market.
 
Last edited:
Which modern games? Only one I have personally compared is FH 5 where TAA looks unquestionably better while running much faster. This is also one of the slower TAA solutions on the market.

TAA looks noticeably blurrier than MSAA (or even no AA) so I don't use TAA in FH5.
 
MSAA wouldn't do much regardless. It only works well in games with very low poly counts and, as already pointed out, minimal shading. It's a technology that should stay dead. SGSSAA though would be a welcome return as an option for high end GPUs.
I recall MSAA being pretty good in AC Black Flag, Unity, and Syndicate. Didn’t it look also good in Crysis 3?
 
A small amount of blur to almost eliminate the sea of flickering pixels is well worth it. Even with 8xMSAA it's a noisy, artifact ridden image.
well, DLSS is a glorified form of TAA, isn't it? Without the blur. I read that SGSSAA was discovered because of a driver side bug
 
Without TAA you not gonna see those giant visual leaps in the PS4 era.
Give up TAA and run ssao, ssr, godrays, froxel fogs, parallax occlusion mapping, any forms of raytracing at full res and ultra high sample count. Now look at the single digit framerate.
 
Also TAA has more variations in implementation than probably all those other AAs added together.
From the way you jitter the frames, the way you accumulate the history buffers, the way you reject and rectify the history buffers, the way you resample the history buffers, the way you treat transparencies... and so much more.
Thinking TAA as one single antialiasing method is like saying computer science is all about programming.
 
I recall MSAA being pretty good in AC Black Flag, Unity, and Syndicate. Didn’t it look also good in Crysis 3?

I remember in the very first level where Pyscho leads you up the stairs on the ship, even 8xAA wasn't removing the aliasing on metal railings and the whole room/chamber just shimmered badly. Can't recall the resolution I was playing it at but very likely <1080p.

Considering how TAA improves with resolution, and with how well DLSS and frame generation are doing this gen, the jump to 8k gaming would be far easier than the performance improvements that have been required earlier. 4k has been around for forever now, with 290X's release being claimed for 4k.


 
I recall MSAA being pretty good in AC Black Flag, Unity, and Syndicate. Didn’t it look also good in Crysis 3?
Unlike in forward shading, MSAA in deferred shading has a lot of different implementation, ranging from old school to effectively selective super sampling.
For example, in RDR2, their MSAA implementation will select pixels whose MSAA subsamples have high normal/depth divergences and run lighting evaluation on each sub sample. This essentially means a 4xSSAA on selective pixels when using 4xMSAA, which also explains the massive performance cost. So this form of MSAA can actually help with some types of shading alias.
But then some other games may choose to use MSAA in deferred shading that simply blend the albedo info around the edges, which doesn't really help in the modern rendering pipeline.
 

DF Direct Weekly #149: Xbox Multi-Plat Meltdown, Helldivers 2, Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Hands-On

0:00:00 Introduction
0:00:52 News 01: Is Microsoft embracing multiplatform gaming?
0:43:52 News 02: Hands-on with Helldivers 2
0:54:41 News 03: Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth impressions!
1:05:03 News 04: Penny’s Big Breakaway preview
1:11:42 Supporter Q1: What’s the minimum advisable frame-rate when using frame gen with a controller?
1:17:50 Supporter Q2: Is Nvidia purposefully limiting frame gen to the RTX 4000 series to increase sales?
1:27:18 Supporter Q3: Given that the Series S is the best-selling current-gen Xbox, should we consider it the baseline experience this gen?
1:34:14 Supporter Q4: Has the use of FSR been good or bad for console gaming?
1:43:14 Supporter Q5: Why doesn’t AMD often pioneer new graphics techniques like Nvidia?
1:51:44 Supporter Q6: Can John recommend any 3D Sonic titles?
 
Back
Top