Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

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which very good recent dx12 games are you talking about?
Returnal
Atomic Heart
cyberpunk hasnt been fine for ages the latest take on df showed their are still problems and it took years to patch
And yet I play it daily.....no issues.

Maybe stop watching videos of games on YouTube and try playing them.
which crysis are u talking about the remastered or the original pc version cause im talking about the original pc version that created the phrase '' can it run crysis''
I'm talking about the 2007 original one.

It was very playable at the end of 2008 with the release of the GTX200 series, HD4000 series and first generation Core i7.

I was literally paying it last night, locked 60fps insane settings and my PC wasn't even breaking a sweat.

Do you actually play the games you claim don't run right?
offers good performance but io stutters still exist unless playing on high end rigs!
False
its not a dev issue because the game just doesnt target 24gb so blaming the dev that the game wasnt made to target your 3000$ gpu is irrelevant.
Who ports the game?

That's right....the developers do....so who's the issue lie with?

That's right......the developers.
doesnt matter what you expect some problems are just unsolvable and cant be solved just because you expect them to, and its not going to stop devs making games for multiple devices.
Which problems are unavoidable?

Can you provide examples?
 
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I am not saying that either of those APIs are problem.

About PS5 apis

"Most people start with the GNMX API which wraps around GNM and manages the more esoteric GPU details in a way that's a lot more familiar if you're used to platforms like D3D11. We started with the high-level one but eventually we moved to the low-level API because it suits our uses a little better," says O'Connor, explaining that while GNMX is a lot simpler to work with, it removes much of the custom access to the PS4 GPU, and also incurs a significant CPU hit.

A lot of work was put into the move to the lower-level GNM, and in the process the tech team found out just how much work DirectX does in the background in terms of memory allocation and resource management. Moving to GNM meant that the developers had to take on the burden there themselves, as O'Connor explains:


"The Crew uses a subset of the D3D11 feature-set, so that subset is for the most part easily portable to the PS4 API. But the PS4 is a console not a PC, so a lot of things that are done for you by D3D on PC - you have to do that yourself. It means there's more DIY to do but it gives you a hell of a lot more control over what you can do with the system."




About dx11/12 apis

"The major difference is that with DX12, you need to be very explicit in how you talk to the GPU (via the API). DX11 is a level higher (conceptually), meaning a lot of the heavy lifting is done under the hood (in the driver). You still need to put all the various bits together when using the API (shaders, various states, etc) but you don't really need to think about how all of these things fit together beyond just specifying the thing you need, and setting it.

The explicitness of DX12 involves a lot more work on your part; you need to write a lot more code, track a lot more state (and think about how that all fits together ahead of time), and generally just think through things a lot more carefully. The driver is a relatively thin layer, and most of the heavy lifting is up to the application developer.

With D3D11, the API is much simpler, much less explicit, and so requires much less lift on your part. A ton of work is done (opaquely to you) in the driver.
Most modern drivers will spin up a bunch of threads to pull things together into something meaningful for the device, and hide a lot of that overhead.

With DX11, the drivers are heavily optimized, so the performance is pretty darned good. But it still ends up being a lot more work (even if much of it happens "behind the scenes") than a well-written DX12 application where the developer explicitly knows all the parts in the puzzle."



Sounds familiar?
well thats a good explanation but the fact is most developers praise the playstation api over direct x 12 or direct x in particular.. im not an expert to explain the nitty gritty details but this is a song weve heard time and time again..

From ali salehi crytek rendering engineer:
The PlayStation 3 had a hard time running multi-platform games compared to the Xbox 360. Red Dead Redemption and GTA IV, for example, ran at 720p on the Microsoft console, but the PlayStation 3 had a poorer output and eventually up scaled the resolution to 720p. But Sony's own studios have been able to offer more detailed games such as The Last of Us and Uncharted 2 and 3 due to their greater familiarity with the console and the development of special software accessibility.]

That is why it is not a good idea to base our opinions only on numbers. But if all the parts in the Xbox Series X can work optimally and the GPU works in its own peak, which is not possible in practice, we can achieve 12 TFlops. In addition to all this, we also have a software section. The example is the advent of of Vulkan and DirectX 12. The hardware did not change, but due to the change in the architecture of the software, the hardware could be better put in use.

The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X. The two are very different. Because Sony has developed exclusive software for the PlayStation 5, it will definitely give developers much more capabilities than Microsoft, which has almost the same directX PC and for its consoles.

Doesn't this difference decline at the end of the generation, when developers become more familiar with the Series X hardware?

No, because the PlayStation API generally gives devs more freedom, and usually at the end of each generation, Sony consoles produce more detailed games. For example, in the early seventh generation, even multi-platform games for both consoles performed poorly on the PlayStation 3. But late in the generation Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us came out on the console. I think the next generation will be the same. But generally speaking XSX must have less trouble pushing more pixels. (He emphasizes on “only” pixels)

Comparisons between Android devices and Apple iPhones have also recently risen analogous to consoles, with Internet discussions suggesting that Android users have higher RAM but poorer performance than iPhones. Is the comparison between the two with the consoles correct?

Software stacks that are placed on top of the hardware determine everything. As performance updates increase exponentially, so do they. Sony has always had better software because Microsoft has to use Windows. So that's right.

theres this and other developers saying similar things even recently.
 
Returnal
Atomic Heart

And yet I play it daily.....no issues.

Maybe stop watching videos of games on YouTube and try playing them.

I'm talking about the 2007 original one.

It was very playable at the end of 2008 with the release of the GTX200 series, HD4000 series and first generation Core i7.

I was literally paying it last night, locked 60fps insane settings and my PC wasn't even breaking a sweat.

Do you actually play the games you claim don't run right?

False

Who ports the game?

That's right....the developers do....so who's the issue lie with?

That's right......the developers.

Which problems are unavoidable?

Can you provide examples?
returnal doesnt run smoothly not only from different reviewers but even df/alex showed that that it takes a high end pc to run smoothly and stutters still exist far more than just loading compared to ps5 on mid range pc,s. Go look at the reviews again, and atomic heart still has shader compilation stutters even after minutes of pre shader compilation according to df review so it isnt flawless as you claim,

crysis wasnt as playable as u claim if it where then the phrase ''can ir run crysis'' wouldnt exist, and not everybody had a high end pc to play that game in 2008 and even then it required lowering graphical settings to make it run acceptably

yes spiderman still has io stutters. whether u like it or not and it isnt false.

just because developers port games to pc doesnt mean its their problem your 24gb gpu is useless on their game. Sometimes things are just the way it is

ive already provided examples of unsolvable issues, 1. api, 2.hardware architecture developers do their best according to the developing environment available you cant keep blaming devs for something they have no power to change. A goat is a goat it cant turn to a lion.
 
returnal doesnt run smoothly not only from different reviewers but even df/alex showed that that it takes a high end pc to run smoothly
The game literally runs smooth on hardware weaker than what PS5 has.

As I suggested, stop watching videos on YouTube and actually try playing the game.
and stutters still exist far more than just loading compared to ps5 on mid range pc,s.
False
Go look at the reviews again
I prefer to play the games and experience them first hand.
and atomic heart still has shader compilation stutters even after minutes of pre shader compilation according to df review so it isnt flawless as you claim.
Another example of you watching YouTube rather then playing games.
crysis wasnt as playable as u claim if it where then the phrase ''can ir run crysis'' wouldnt exist
It literally was.

But you've never played it on 2008 PC hardware so why are you arguing about something you know nothing about and have no actual experience with?
and not everybody had a high end pc to play that game in 2008 and even then it required lowering graphical settings to make it run acceptably
The HD4000 series and GTX200 series were cheap and we're capable of playing the game on the highest setting.
yes spiderman still has io stutters. whether u like it or not and it isnt false.
And yet perfectly fine on my PC.
just because developers port games to pc doesnt mean its their problem your 24gb gpu is useless on their game.
It is their problem.

If a mechanic builds a race engine and it runs poorly who's problem is it?
ive already provided examples of unsolvable issues
No you haven't.

Spend less time on YouTube and more time playing games, Thanks
 
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So they also should not enhance PC versions so no one feels lessened with a "weaker" version ^^
Not sure what you're talking about. My position is that they should do a proper job with the games they release. This has nothing to do with not optimizing or enhancing a game for X or Y... its that they shouldn't release one version highly optimized while the other is released in a terrible state..

Of course I said that life isn't fair. Nobody is owed a game at the same time as anyone else. Pubs and devs make the decisions.. the only thing I can say is don't be surprised at the reactions from the other side when they're pissed off about it.
 
well thats a good explanation but the fact is most developers praise the playstation api over direct x 12 or direct x in particular.. im not an expert to explain the nitty gritty details but this is a song weve heard time and time again..

From ali salehi crytek rendering engineer:
The PlayStation 3 had a hard time running multi-platform games compared to the Xbox 360. Red Dead Redemption and GTA IV, for example, ran at 720p on the Microsoft console, but the PlayStation 3 had a poorer output and eventually up scaled the resolution to 720p. But Sony's own studios have been able to offer more detailed games such as The Last of Us and Uncharted 2 and 3 due to their greater familiarity with the console and the development of special software accessibility.]

That is why it is not a good idea to base our opinions only on numbers. But if all the parts in the Xbox Series X can work optimally and the GPU works in its own peak, which is not possible in practice, we can achieve 12 TFlops. In addition to all this, we also have a software section. The example is the advent of of Vulkan and DirectX 12. The hardware did not change, but due to the change in the architecture of the software, the hardware could be better put in use.

The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X. The two are very different. Because Sony has developed exclusive software for the PlayStation 5, it will definitely give developers much more capabilities than Microsoft, which has almost the same directX PC and for its consoles.

Doesn't this difference decline at the end of the generation, when developers become more familiar with the Series X hardware?

No, because the PlayStation API generally gives devs more freedom, and usually at the end of each generation, Sony consoles produce more detailed games. For example, in the early seventh generation, even multi-platform games for both consoles performed poorly on the PlayStation 3. But late in the generation Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us came out on the console. I think the next generation will be the same. But generally speaking XSX must have less trouble pushing more pixels. (He emphasizes on “only” pixels)

Comparisons between Android devices and Apple iPhones have also recently risen analogous to consoles, with Internet discussions suggesting that Android users have higher RAM but poorer performance than iPhones. Is the comparison between the two with the consoles correct?

Software stacks that are placed on top of the hardware determine everything. As performance updates increase exponentially, so do they. Sony has always had better software because Microsoft has to use Windows. So that's right.

theres this and other developers saying similar things even recently.

The Crytec quote is from x360 era. Since then a lot have chnaged even last gen on xbox one msft did major overhaul of gfx apis and they updated apis at least twice during xone life cycle. Things are completely diffrent now.

"Q: What is it like developing on Xbox Series X?

A: Transitioning development to a new console platform, like Xbox Series X, is usually very painful. You have to deal with new tools, new workflows, new ways of thinking.

This time around the team at Xbox brought me a new toolset called the Game Development Kit, which they already had up and running on Xbox One.

This meant that we could make the transition much earlier. In fact, we started doing the groundwork for Xbox Series X development long before we even received the hardware. This kind of thinking from Xbox allowed us to get a real head-start on next-gen development, so after receiving our early Xbox Series X hardware, we were up and running really quickly.

For me, the most important thing in making a videogame is the relationships. Working with Xbox, is a partnership – the team at Xbox is committed to helping us make a great videogame and they’ve shown that to me again and again. That means being open and honest about our experiences; what we’ve loved and perhaps even what we’ve found difficult in development has had meaningful, visible impact on the updates that I get for the tools for Series X. (Shout out to our development partner at Xbox, Richard Hackett! Thanks Rich!)"


As you see tools evolves and msft seems to be listening and updating/fixing tools based on feedback they get. The toolset was updated few times since launch, we dont know how good they are now.
In the last DF video John mentioned that in the begining there were some complains about tools but now they dont hear anything about any issues.


"The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X. The two are very different. "

Sony put custom "own" OS so its better... ok and what is primary Microsft doing and is known for? In PC space wich OS dominates gaming market? Right Windows so lets assume that MSFT does know how to write thin OS for custom HW.


"No, because the PlayStation API generally gives devs more freedom, and usually at the end of each generation, Sony consoles produce more detailed games. For example, in the early seventh generation, even multi-platform games for both consoles performed poorly on the PlayStation 3. But late in the generation Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us came out on the console. I think the next generation will be the same. But generally speaking XSX must have less trouble pushing more pixels. (He emphasizes on “only” pixels)"

Right so first party games at the end of geberation looked better than early multiplat games. This is pretty much true for every console ever realased.
 
The game literally runs smooth on hardware weaker than what PS5 has.

As I suggested, stop watching videos on YouTube and actually try playing the game.

False

I prefer to play the games and experience them first hand.

Another example of you watching YouTube rather then playing games.

It literally was.

But you've never played it on 2008 PC hardware so why are you arguing about something you know nothing about and have no actual experience with?

The HD4000 series and GTX200 series were cheap and we're capable of playing the game on the highest setting.

And yet perfectly fine on my PC.

It is their problem.

If a mechanic builds a race engine and it runs poorly who's problem is it?

No you haven't.

Spend less time on YouTube and more time playing games, Thanks
im not gonna purchase a 70$ game just to prove it has stutters and performance issues this is why people trust digital foundry benchmarks and online reviews and according to all the reviews ive looked returnal has stutters, spiderman has stutters and even df contacted the dev and the devs said its because of decompression so doesnt matter if u claim everything to be false im pretty sure alot of reviewers arent claiming flase things.

and yes ive played crysis ever since it came out and over through the years ive tried it on different pc's and up until recent years its when ive played it comfortably.

Good for u if its perfectly fine on your pc some people are perfectly fine with stutters and other hitches, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder anyway.

if a mechanic builds an engine and it runs poorly! then try finding where the problem is and stop blaming the mechanic for everything... the problem might be the engine oil you put in the engine, it could be the type of fuel your using, it could be the weather conditions it could also be the driver... some things arent the mechanics fault.
 
The Crytec quote is from x360 era. Since then a lot have chnaged even last gen on xbox one msft did major overhaul of gfx apis and they updated apis at least twice during xone life cycle. Things are completely diffrent now.

"Q: What is it like developing on Xbox Series X?

A: Transitioning development to a new console platform, like Xbox Series X, is usually very painful. You have to deal with new tools, new workflows, new ways of thinking.

This time around the team at Xbox brought me a new toolset called the Game Development Kit, which they already had up and running on Xbox One.

This meant that we could make the transition much earlier. In fact, we started doing the groundwork for Xbox Series X development long before we even received the hardware. This kind of thinking from Xbox allowed us to get a real head-start on next-gen development, so after receiving our early Xbox Series X hardware, we were up and running really quickly.

For me, the most important thing in making a videogame is the relationships. Working with Xbox, is a partnership – the team at Xbox is committed to helping us make a great videogame and they’ve shown that to me again and again. That means being open and honest about our experiences; what we’ve loved and perhaps even what we’ve found difficult in development has had meaningful, visible impact on the updates that I get for the tools for Series X. (Shout out to our development partner at Xbox, Richard Hackett! Thanks Rich!)"


As you see tools evolves and msft seems to be listening and updating/fixing tools based on feedback they get. The toolset was updated few times since launch, we dont know how good they are now.
In the last DF video John mentioned that in the begining there were some complains about tools but now they dont hear anything about any issues.


"The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X. The two are very different. "

Sony put custom "own" OS so its better... ok and what is primary Microsft doing and is known for? In PC space wich OS dominates gaming market? Right Windows so lets assume that MSFT does know how to write thin OS for custom HW.


"No, because the PlayStation API generally gives devs more freedom, and usually at the end of each generation, Sony consoles produce more detailed games. For example, in the early seventh generation, even multi-platform games for both consoles performed poorly on the PlayStation 3. But late in the generation Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us came out on the console. I think the next generation will be the same. But generally speaking XSX must have less trouble pushing more pixels. (He emphasizes on “only” pixels)"

Right so first party games at the end of geberation looked better than early multiplat games. This is pretty much true for every console ever realased.
the crytec quote is from ps5 and series x not x360 era
 
The Crytec quote is from x360 era. Since then a lot have chnaged even last gen on xbox one msft did major overhaul of gfx apis and they updated apis at least twice during xone life cycle. Things are completely diffrent now.

"Q: What is it like developing on Xbox Series X?

A: Transitioning development to a new console platform, like Xbox Series X, is usually very painful. You have to deal with new tools, new workflows, new ways of thinking.

This time around the team at Xbox brought me a new toolset called the Game Development Kit, which they already had up and running on Xbox One.

This meant that we could make the transition much earlier. In fact, we started doing the groundwork for Xbox Series X development long before we even received the hardware. This kind of thinking from Xbox allowed us to get a real head-start on next-gen development, so after receiving our early Xbox Series X hardware, we were up and running really quickly.

For me, the most important thing in making a videogame is the relationships. Working with Xbox, is a partnership – the team at Xbox is committed to helping us make a great videogame and they’ve shown that to me again and again. That means being open and honest about our experiences; what we’ve loved and perhaps even what we’ve found difficult in development has had meaningful, visible impact on the updates that I get for the tools for Series X. (Shout out to our development partner at Xbox, Richard Hackett! Thanks Rich!)"


As you see tools evolves and msft seems to be listening and updating/fixing tools based on feedback they get. The toolset was updated few times since launch, we dont know how good they are now.
In the last DF video John mentioned that in the begining there were some complains about tools but now they dont hear anything about any issues.


"The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X. The two are very different. "

Sony put custom "own" OS so its better... ok and what is primary Microsft doing and is known for? In PC space wich OS dominates gaming market? Right Windows so lets assume that MSFT does know how to write thin OS for custom HW.


"No, because the PlayStation API generally gives devs more freedom, and usually at the end of each generation, Sony consoles produce more detailed games. For example, in the early seventh generation, even multi-platform games for both consoles performed poorly on the PlayStation 3. But late in the generation Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us came out on the console. I think the next generation will be the same. But generally speaking XSX must have less trouble pushing more pixels. (He emphasizes on “only” pixels)"

Right so first party games at the end of geberation looked better than early multiplat games. This is pretty much true for every console ever realased.
the toolset excuse has been a long excuse from microsoft and it never ends ive heard such excuses since directx 12 was unvieled and since then nothing has changed we are now 3 years in the current gen and still the series x on average performs worse compared to the ps5 and the tools just dont cut it any more, nogt only do series x games have performance problems but they are similar to some pc problems and df claiming devs prefer the ps5's api is simply the nail in the coffin
 
we are now 3 years in the current gen and still the series x on average performs worse compared to the ps5
Only if you ignore all the situations where it performs on par or better. Don't force people to repost the breakdown from DF or elsewhere again.
 
There seems to be a perception of the PC developing recently of a platform that basically only has broken games where no amount of money can give you a good experience (with a hand full of notable exceptions). And I think launches like Calisto, Sack Boy and Wild Hearts contribute greatly to that perception. The fact that these issues are generally solved, or mitigated to the point of no longer being that important within days or weeks of the games release doesn't tend to enter the wider consciousness. And that can be seriously damaging to the long term future of PC gaming.
Getting the console games out the door(and hopefully in a good state) and then going back and giving the PC version an extra week or two of TLC might be alright if everything is the same or slightly better than what is on consoles. I think the same will work on consoles. For a week or two, a six-month or more delay for one of the consoles would be bad because that makes the game seem like an exclusive rather than just being a delay.

Though I really do think something is getting missed in QA. What type of machines are they working on that they can't see some of these issues? Uninstalling and reinstalling the game after each update should be part of QA so that QA gets as close to the freshly installed experience that users will have on day 1 of whenever the PC version is released.
 
im not gonna purchase a 70$ game just to prove it has stutters.
Or I can post a video of it running in my PC at a silky smooth 60fps max settings 🤦‍♂️
and according to all the reviews ive looked returnal has stutters.
That's cute, I have returnal and guess what.....no stutters.

Play games, not reviews.
spiderman has stutters.
I'm so tempted to post a video 😂
and even df contacted the dev and the devs said its because of decompression so doesnt matter if u claim everything to be false im pretty sure alot of reviewers arent claiming flase things.
Boring.
and yes ive played crysis ever since it came out and over through the years ive tried it on different pc's and up until recent years its when ive played it comfortably.
Crysis has been CPU limited for well over 10 years and the first CPU to really offer 60fps in it was Sandy Bridge well over 10 years ago.
Good for u if its perfectly fine on your pc some people are perfectly fine with stutters and other hitches beauty is in the eyes of the beholder anyway.
Or in your case, in the eyes of what ever review you read.
if a mechanic builds an engine and it runs poorly! then try finding where the problem is and stop blaming the mechanic for everything.
This is everything wrong with you summed up in this single reply🤦‍♂️
the problem might be the engine oil you put in the engine, it could be the type of fuel your using, it could be the weather conditions it could also be the driver... some things arent the mechanics fault.
Mechanics add the oil and map it for the fuel you're using.

Weather ? 😂
 
The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X.
Outside of the APIs used you do realize that "PlayStation OS", at least since the PS3, have been based on BSD? Practically no one builds an OS from scratch, even Apple uses BSD to a certain degree.
 
Or I can post a video of it running in my PC at a silky smooth 60fps max settings 🤦‍♂️

That's cute, I have returnal and guess what.....no stutters.

Play games, not reviews.

I'm so tempted to post a video 😂

Boring.

Crysis has been CPU limited for well over 10 years and the first CPU to really offer 60fps in it was Sandy Bridge well over 10 years ago.

Or in your case, in the eyes of what ever review you read.

This is everything wrong with you summed up in this single reply🤦‍♂️

Mechanics add the oil and map it for the fuel you're using.

Weather ? 😂
using emoji's doesnt help putting ur point cause all im understanding here is ur having a mental breakdown, cause you have resorted to cheap jibes.. its just pointless now
 
Only if you ignore all the situations where it performs on par or better. Don't force people to repost the breakdown from DF or elsewhere again.
which situations, the minor situations in which it does it does it by having a slightly higher res and sacrificing frame rates tonnes of examples out there and the resolution is so negligible that df have to zoom 100x to prove this and some cases ask the dev whats the resolution thats running on both consoles since it cant be easily found, but frame rates are easilly detectable.. nobody is claiming that series x doesnt have games performing better its just that on average the ps5 comes out on top. id say a plague tale and dead space are recent examples. problem is its been 3 years and weve heard alot of excuses about tools and i think its not just about tools.
 
using emoji's doesnt help putting ur point cause all im understanding here is ur having a mental breakdown, cause you have resorted to cheap jibes.. its just pointless now
I noticed how you completely avoided addressing the criticism.

But I have recorded a video of Spiderman running on my PC at max settings at a rock solid 60fps with zero stutter on my $140 CPU.

Just say the word and I'll upload it and we can be done with your nonsense.
 
I noticed how you completely avoided addressing the criticism.

But I have recorded a video of Spiderman running at max settings at a rock solid 60fps with zero stutter on my $140 CPU

Just say the word and I'll upload it.
you can upload it a million times over it still wont mean its the gospel truth for my defence ill post online reviews and people addressing the stutters...
 
Outside of the APIs used you do realize that "PlayStation OS", at least since the PS3, have been based on BSD? Practically no one builds an OS from scratch, even Apple uses BSD to a certain degree.
thats not my issue to address i simply posted an article of a developer saying ps5 api is more preferable than dx12 whether it runs on bsd or an alien language isnt my problem
 
you can upload it a million times over it still wont mean its the gospel truth for my defence ill post online reviews and people addressing the stutters...
Yes, please post your reviews and videos of when the game launched which no longer represent in anyway how the game actually performs.

That's the interesting thing about written reviews and review videos, they're out of date the second they're published.
 
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Yes post reviews and videos of when the game launched which no longer represent in anyway how the game actually performs.

That's the interesting thing about written reviews and review videos, they're out if date the second they're published.
how do i know they dont represent the game today, listening to someones word on an online forum and trusting that the game has no stutters doesnt cut it for me, all in know is ive watched reviews after patching and the stutters still exist which dont exist on my ps5
 
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