Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

[davis.anthony]

Waiting for an "its console's fault" comment

It's consoles fault

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Superbly done @Dictator. There are of course financial pressures/incompetent managers/publishers that affect these decisions too, but I definitely believe there are some developers that also just don't have extensive experience with the PC and really get blindsided when they get review bombed due to breaking long established standards.

I particularly liked the callout for dynamic res support, and especially to actually make it work well - I don't doubt it's more work than the consoles to implement it properly, but it can be done. Dishonored 2 is another DX11 game that has a good implementation (and a perfect half-refresh rate option too), and Deathloop is a DX12 game where it's effective too. DLSS/FSR isn't enough, there will always be spots in games that have inordinate amounts of rendering load compared to the majority of gameplay. Dynamic res just makes it far easier to get into the game without returning to the graphical settings every time you encounter a rough area, you can just maybe set the presets one notch down from Ultra, turn on dynamic res, and then start playing. Especially on a 4K display, I notice slight resolution drops (esp when they occur in alpha-heavy scenes) far less than framerate drops.

The only slight conflict I think was the desire to avoid scrolling and sub-menus in graphical settings, but also wanting to have real-time scene changes visible when you're changing settings. The less scrolling and nested menus you have with extensive graphical options, the more this overlay will cover the scene. When I encounter games that offer graphics settings changes that are reflected immediately, it's annoying when I have to peer around the settings menu that's obscuring half the scene.

I can't recall the game where I've seen this but one particular interesting implementation I've run across is when changing a setting, the rest of the menu disappears and that one setting is then centered at the bottom of a screen to allow for a fullscreen preview of the changes. This of course means you'll be hitting <esc> far more often though.

 

[davis.anthony]

Some of the points I think he raises as a reviewer, like the menu's for graphics.

I get that someone reviewing a game like Alex does will spend an age messing with settings but I imagine the vast majority will just set and forget.

So I don't think most people are bothered that much by the settings being hidden behind other screens.

 

[iroboto]

Some of the points I think he raises as a reviewer, like the menu's for graphics.

I get that someone reviewing a game like Alex does will spend an age messing with settings but I imagine the vast majority will just set and forget.

So I don't think most people are bothered that much by the settings being hidden behind other screens.

I think it's valid however. In particular the point in offering console style settings.
If they meticulously went through the game to optimize the settings to perform well on the consoles (and they can't change them there) then why not offer that optimization to PC users so that people can just jump in and get the most optimum performance/visual quality mix that the artists believe the settings to be.

I do get it comes from a reviewer mentality, but he brings up good points, I often don't know what I'm actually getting when I play with these settings.
If you don't actually know, then you get sort of annoyed that you aren't getting the 'best'.

And that' drives a narrative that everyone should be owning cards that are producing 60fps @ ultra quality when we can't tell if what we are missing out on... when offering console settings makes for a smart thing to do for those who don't have the graphical power to set their preset to ultra.

 

[davis.anthony]

I think it's valid however. In particular the point in offering console style settings.
If they meticulously went through the game to optimize the settings to perform well on the consoles (and they can't change them there) then why not offer that optimization to PC users so that people can just jump in and get the most optimum performance/visual quality mix that the artists believe the settings to be.

I do get it comes from a reviewer mentality, but he brings up good points, I often don't know what I'm actually getting when I play with these settings.
If you don't actually know, then you get sort of annoyed that you aren't getting the 'best'.

And that' drives a narrative that everyone should be owning cards that are producing 60fps @ ultra quality when we can't tell if what we are missing out on... when offering console settings makes for a smart thing to do for those who don't have the graphical power to set their preset to ultra.

I'm talking about the UI, not what each setting does or console equivalent settings being included.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

That's not even an excuse. Even if your older and only played on console it's not an excuse.

If you don't have the knowledge or resources, hire someone who does have that knowledge or resources about the PC platform. That's why Sony bought nixxes. So that they can bring PC know how and knowledge to the side of gaming that doesn't need to worry about pc

The PC userbase doesn't need excuses they need results. Preferably yesterday

As Alex said, a lot of these recommendations are to just give what the console versions already have! Dynamic res, proper frame pacing, console equivalent settings - many of these benefit a gamer who's used to consoles too.

It's not like they're unaware of what a good PC port involves. Perhaps for some Japanese dev who is very new to the open world of the PC ecosystem maybe, but in the vast majority of cases, PC ports are delivered subpar simply through because there's either complications that are too much to deal with, or the team just doesn't have enough resources(time, money, manpower) to do what they'd like to do. And sometimes just straight up lack of ability.

Perhaps the developers involved with these sub-optimal ports are well aware of the issues, sure.

But one thing's certain - you're definitely not going to get any improvement if major review outlets stay silent. I mean, you're offering a product for sale, this is basically part of a product review. It doesn't matter exactly where the particular faultline lies, if it predominantly lies with cynical publishers, then the only way to make them notice is to give them bad PR. A helpful video of "This is what you should do to make your product appreciated by the consumers you're selling it too before you release it" is about the most genteel way you can go about that.

 

[Nesh]

I think it's valid however. In particular the point in offering console style settings.
If they meticulously went through the game to optimize the settings to perform well on the consoles (and they can't change them there) then why not offer that optimization to PC users so that people can just jump in and get the most optimum performance/visual quality mix that the artists believe the settings to be.

I do get it comes from a reviewer mentality, but he brings up good points, I often don't know what I'm actually getting when I play with these settings.
If you don't actually know, then you get sort of annoyed that you aren't getting the 'best'.

And that' drives a narrative that everyone should be owning cards that are producing 60fps @ ultra quality when we can't tell if what we are missing out on... when offering console settings makes for a smart thing to do for those who don't have the graphical power to set their preset to ultra.

The thing is settings on Consoles are designed around a standard set of hardware where the developer prioritizes based possibly on standards defined by the platform owner.
So in most cases you have performance, fidelity and something in between with RT.

On PC there are a crap load of hardware builds, where the PC user wants to have control for specific aspects of the visuals.
For example I have a 1080 TI card. If devs go with console standards I have just performance and fidelity. But it doesnt end there. My optimal fidelity or performance settings apparently are significantly different from a 2070 and a 1060. Then you have to account for RAM and CPU differences per user.
The latter two users will focus on completely different configurations settings to either get the best performance, or best IQ or something in between. Some developers might focus on the simplest configurations to keep things user friendly (but some users might complain about lack of flexibility) and other devs might focus on complex settings about pretty much every aspect of the performance and visuals (where some users might complain about too complex settings).
Someone might say, the devs should create performance profiles for different hardware configurations where the best settings are selected for each hardware. They partly do something like that, where settings are adapting to the hardware. But then again it can't be fully perfect. People might have the same GPU, but hugely different RAM, CPU's and Drives. And will want to sacrifice different things to get max performance or resolution from each other.

It would have been a completely different story if PC's were sold at a specific set of hardware configurations, where the devs can have predictable hardware profiles to test.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

The thing is settings on Consoles are designed around a standard set of hardware where the developer prioritizes based possibly on standards defined by the platform owner.
So in most cases you have performance, fidelity and something in between with RT.

On PC there are a crap load of hardware builds, where the PC user wants to have control for specific aspects of the visuals.
For example I have a 1080 TI card. If devs go with console standards I have just performance and fidelity. But it doesnt end there. My optimal fidelity or performance settings apparently are significantly different from a 2070 and a 1060. Then you have to account for RAM and CPU differences per user.
The latter two users will focus on completely different configurations settings to either get the best performance, or best IQ or something in between. Some developers might focus on the simplest configurations to keep things user friendly (but some users might complain about lack of flexibility) and other devs might focus on complex settings about pretty much every aspect of the performance and visuals (where some users might complain about too complex settings).
Someone might say, the devs should create performance profiles for different hardware configurations where the best settings are selected for each hardware. They partly do something like that, where settings are adapting to the hardware. But then again it can't be fully perfect. People might have the same GPU, but hugely different RAM, CPU's and Drives. And will want to sacrifice different things to get max performance or resolution from each other.

It would have been a completely different story if PC's were sold at a specific set of hardware configurations, where the devs can have predictable hardware profiles to test.

No one is actually advocating for console settings at the exclusion of settings that can go lower/higher, so not sure what you're even getting at with this. This is simply asking developers to make their console-equivalent settings easily identifiable, and actually offered - for example in Call of Duty Blacks ops as DF pointed out, regardless of the settings the PC has certain effects at a higher precision than the console ports, this potentially optimized performance option is not available.

 

[davis.anthony]

It would have been a completely different story if PC's were sold at a specific set of hardware configurations, where the devs can have predictable hardware profiles to test.

Then they would be a console and not a PC.

 

[Nesh]

Then they would be a console and not a PC.

Exactly And they will never be. It is a harder task for developers to optimise on PC.

 

[chris1515]

The thing is settings on Consoles are designed around a standard set of hardware where the developer prioritizes based possibly on standards defined by the platform owner.
So in most cases you have performance, fidelity and something in between with RT.

On PC there are a crap load of hardware builds, where the PC user wants to have control for specific aspects of the visuals.
For example I have a 1080 TI card. If devs go with console standards I have just performance and fidelity. But it doesnt end there. My optimal fidelity or performance settings apparently are significantly different from a 2070 and a 1060. Then you have to account for RAM and CPU differences per user.
The latter two users will focus on completely different configurations settings to either get the best performance, or best IQ or something in between. Some developers might focus on the simplest configurations to keep things user friendly (but some users might complain about lack of flexibility) and other devs might focus on complex settings about pretty much every aspect of the performance and visuals (where some users might complain about too complex settings).
Someone might say, the devs should create performance profiles for different hardware configurations where the best settings are selected for each hardware. They partly do something like that, where settings are adapting to the hardware. But then again it can't be fully perfect. People might have the same GPU, but hugely different RAM, CPU's and Drives. And will want to sacrifice different things to get max performance or resolution from each other.

It would have been a completely different story if PC's were sold at a specific set of hardware configurations, where the devs can have predictable hardware profiles to test.

Like Alex told in the video his optimal settings in most game looks like console setting. God of War default setting is the console one.

 

[iroboto]

I'm talking about the UI, not what each setting does or console equivalent settings being included.

Personally, I also prefer it to be like Alex says, no nested menus makes for a much easier time for people to know where things are and what is and is not present.
If all games standardized in this way, we would know immediately what we could and could not change, without having to menu dive for a long time.

It's true it's a minor gripe, but I think in the grand scheme of things, I say, why not. Just makes it easier for developers and consumers anyway.

 

[Inuhanyou]

PCs may be PCs and consoles may be consoles. But I think a minimum standard of usability for pc gaming should be required.

It's fair to say that many times collaboration between console sides and pc sides in development on specific technologies or implementations of features may be impossible or impractical due to different developers working on ports and such things.

But no matter what, things should be more improved and consistent on PC than they are now I think. You can have a game with tons of options and running well on one game and no options and totally out of synch for the hardware on another game. It's not too much to ask to atleast ask each game to scale and conform to the users specifications as the PC platform dictates

 

[Nesh]

No one is actually advocating for console settings at the exclusion of settings that can go lower/higher, so not sure what you're even getting at with this. This is simply asking developers to make their console-equivalent settings easily identifiable, and actually offered - for example in Call of Duty Blacks ops as DF pointed out, regardless of the settings the PC has certain effects at a higher precision than the console ports, this potentially optimized performance option is not available.

I was referring to @iroboto's comment talking about console style optimizations. I was explaining why it is harder on PC

 

[Nesh]

Like Alex told in the video his optimal settings in most game looks like console setting. God of War default setting is the console one.

Well yeah, but then again you have users complaining that PC versions are held back by consoles and want more flexibility and for visuals to be pushed further. And then you have users with lower performant configurations having to fiddle with the settings, and there how do you define the best optimized ones?
In the case of GoW, we have a target of how the game should perform and look like on console long before the PC port. Then the PC port is developed from there and designed for the corresponding PC configuration to get the best you can from that. But a dev making a simultaneous release, which configuration best represents the game you want to make? Console? A high end PC? Which PC configuration? If the Console is the target, do you have the time to take advantage and optimize for the various hardware configurations simultaneously?
I am pretty sure that if devs had the time to wait for the PC version, they could do something similar Sony did with GoW or Days Gone

 

[neckthrough]

From that Era thread:

This video should have had a bit of stutter in it, just for a meta joke.

 

[chris1515]

Well yeah, but then again you have users complaining that PC versions are held back by consoles and want more flexibility and for visuals to be pushed further. And then you have users with lower performant configurations having to fiddle with the settings, and there how do you define the best optimized ones?
In the case of GoW, we have a target of how the game should perform and look like on console long before the PC port. Then the PC port is developed from there and designed for the corresponding PC configuration to get the best you can from that. But a dev making a simultaneous release, which configuration best represents the game you want to make? Console? A high end PC? Which PC configuration? If the Console is the target, do you have the time to take advantage and optimize for the various hardware configurations simultaneously?
I am pretty sure that if devs had the time to wait for the PC version, they could do something similar Sony did with GoW or Days Gone

You can do exactly like God of war has made the default configuration like console and after each gamer goes to the menu and change depending of the hardware power.

 

[iroboto]

The thing is settings on Consoles are designed around a standard set of hardware where the developer prioritizes based possibly on standards defined by the platform owner.
So in most cases you have performance, fidelity and something in between with RT.

On PC there are a crap load of hardware builds, where the PC user wants to have control for specific aspects of the visuals.

So on this point, Alex is referring to having access to the settings for PS5 on PC. Instead of meticulously evaluating through various settings between low and high to figure out what settings PS5 is actually running.
He's suggesting that as one of the typical PC configurations:
custom, low, medium, high, ultra: now add +console
those configurations set all the settings you find in the menu -- and typically console settings tend to be setting you can't find on PC even if you wanted to. He's just asking to lift PS5s graphical settings and to dump it on PC.

you may have misread my comment. I'm not advocating for optimized settings for each PC configuration like they do on console. I'm just advocating that they lift the Xbox or PS5 settings which are already optimized and let the PC run the same settings.

 

[Nesh]

You can do exactly like God of war has made the default configuration like console and after each gamer goes to the menu and change depending of the hardware power.

You are talking about a game that was released on old PS4 hardware many years ago ported on PC recently

 

[Nesh]

So on this point, Alex is referring to having access to the settings for PS5 on PC. Instead of meticulously evaluating through various settings between low and high to figure out what settings PS5 is actually running.
He's suggesting that as one of the typical PC configurations:
custom, low, medium, high, ultra: now add +console
those configurations set all the settings you find in the menu -- and typically console settings tend to be setting you can't find on PC even if you wanted to. He's just asking to lift PS5s graphical settings and to dump it on PC.

you may have misread my comment. I'm not advocating for optimized settings for each PC configuration like they do on console. I'm just advocating that they lift the Xbox or PS5 settings which are already optimized and let the PC run the same settings.

Ok got it