Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

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pjbliverpool said:
These are non-RT benchmarks though.
Click to expand...
Below2D said:
Those benchmarks are without ray tracing and only use signed distance fields for reflections. Doesn’t sound like the difference should be that large.
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Oh I see.

Seems Alan Wake 2 is doing lots of GPU driven rendering, this could further separate Ampere from Turing, owing to Ampere's heavy FP32 capabilities. I also think the advantage of Ampere in Path Tracing is due to that FP32 focus as well.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718887052521918551
 
Globalisateur said:
That's really promising for future consoles including PS5 Pro that is rumoured to be +RDNA3
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The 2xFP32 in RDNA 3 doesn't seem to be very usable in practice and I'm not convinced it will be fixed in a PS5 pro given how far ahead of time these consoles have to be spec finalized.
 
Could it also be because Turing is limited by the PCIe interface? I think it was in Rift Apart that PCIe 4 performed better than 3?
 
DavidGraham said:
Oh I see.

Seems Alan Wake 2 is doing lots of GPU driven rendering, this could further separate Ampere from Turing, owing to Ampere's heavy FP32 capabilities. I also think the advantage of Ampere in Path Tracing is due to that FP32 focus as well.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718887052521918551
Click to expand...
Alan Wake 2 also conveniently has VERY limited draw distances for the vast majority of the game. This is undoubtedly helping quite a bit in this regard.

Also, speaking of, Rich(DF) did testing on non-mesh shader GPU's and found that while the 5700XT does struggle, it seems to be able to manage a *nearly* playable level of performance while a 1080Ti is just basically unusable trash, barely scraping 20fps. Thought that was interesting as I'm not sure what would be causing that discrepancy. Also, he tests a 1660Ti, which is the non-RT Turing part, and that does seem to have mesh shader support and runs ok as a result.
 
Basically my 1080ti is becoming obsolete just with the use of mesh shaders. What a shame as this is still a powerful GPU
 
Seanspeed said:
Alan Wake 2 also conveniently has VERY limited draw distances for the vast majority of the game. This is undoubtedly helping quite a bit in this regard.

Also, speaking of, Rich(DF) did testing on non-mesh shader GPU's and found that while the 5700XT does struggle, it seems to be able to manage a *nearly* playable level of performance while a 1080Ti is just basically unusable trash, barely scraping 20fps. Thought that was interesting as I'm not sure what would be causing that discrepancy. Also, he tests a 1660Ti, which is the non-RT Turing part, and that does seem to have mesh shader support and runs ok as a result.
Click to expand...
Probably mostly down to DX12 since Pascal is still better at geometry than RDNA 1.
 
Taken from the 4Gamer interview from earlier this year.
www-4gamer-net.translate.goog

À¾ÀîÁ±»Ê¤Î3DGE¡§Primitive ShaderÂÐMesh Shader¤Î¿¿¼Â¡£¥¸¥ª¥á¥È¥ê¥Ñ¥¤¥×¥é¥¤¥óÀïÁè¤ÎÆâËë¤ÈAMD¤Î¥²¡¼¥Þ¡¼¸þ¤±GPUÀïά

¡¡µî¤ë2022ǯ12·î¡¤AMD¤ÎRadeon GPUÀïά¤òÅý³ç¤¹¤ëDavid Wang»á¤ÈRick Bergman»á¤Ë¡¤¥¤¥ó¥¿¥Ó¥å¡¼¤¹¤ëµ¡²ñ¤òÆÀ¤¿¡£ËܹƤǤϡ¤Èà¤é¤Ëʹ¤¤¤¿¡ÖPrimitive ShaderÂÐMesh Shader¡×¤Î¥¸¥ª¥á¥È¥ê¥Ñ¥¤¥×¥é¥¤¥óɸ½à²½Á褤¤Î¼Â¾ð¤È¡¤º£¸å¤Î¥²¡¼¥Þ¡¼¸þ¤±GPUÀïά¤Ë¤Ä¤¤¤Æ¤ò¥ì¥Ý¡¼¥È¤·¤¿¤¤¡£
www-4gamer-net.translate.goog
"1. Primitive Shader as hardware exists in everything from Radeon RX Vega to the latest RDNA 3-based GPU. When viewed from DirectX 12, Radeon GPU's Primitive Shader is designed to work as a Mesh Shader."

While I think there is likely more optimization than that, is this the reason why this game is playable with the 5700XT?
 
Dr. Nick said:
Taken from the 4Gamer interview from earlier this year.
www-4gamer-net.translate.goog

À¾ÀîÁ±»Ê¤Î3DGE¡§Primitive ShaderÂÐMesh Shader¤Î¿¿¼Â¡£¥¸¥ª¥á¥È¥ê¥Ñ¥¤¥×¥é¥¤¥óÀïÁè¤ÎÆâËë¤ÈAMD¤Î¥²¡¼¥Þ¡¼¸þ¤±GPUÀïά

¡¡µî¤ë2022ǯ12·î¡¤AMD¤ÎRadeon GPUÀïά¤òÅý³ç¤¹¤ëDavid Wang»á¤ÈRick Bergman»á¤Ë¡¤¥¤¥ó¥¿¥Ó¥å¡¼¤¹¤ëµ¡²ñ¤òÆÀ¤¿¡£ËܹƤǤϡ¤Èà¤é¤Ëʹ¤¤¤¿¡ÖPrimitive ShaderÂÐMesh Shader¡×¤Î¥¸¥ª¥á¥È¥ê¥Ñ¥¤¥×¥é¥¤¥óɸ½à²½Á褤¤Î¼Â¾ð¤È¡¤º£¸å¤Î¥²¡¼¥Þ¡¼¸þ¤±GPUÀïά¤Ë¤Ä¤¤¤Æ¤ò¥ì¥Ý¡¼¥È¤·¤¿¤¤¡£
www-4gamer-net.translate.goog
"1. Primitive Shader as hardware exists in everything from Radeon RX Vega to the latest RDNA 3-based GPU. When viewed from DirectX 12, Radeon GPU's Primitive Shader is designed to work as a Mesh Shader."

While I think there is likely more optimization than that, is this the reason why this game is playable with the 5700XT?
Click to expand...
Maybe so. It would make sense compared to Nvidia 10x series falls way behind. It's like AMD at one point was future proofed in important ways but didn't know when or where such technologies would be utilized if ever
 
Dr. Nick said:
"1. Primitive Shader as hardware exists in everything from Radeon RX Vega to the latest RDNA 3-based GPU. When viewed from DirectX 12, Radeon GPU's Primitive Shader is designed to work as a Mesh Shader."
Click to expand...

How could this possible with classic(vertex shader) programming model? And if that claim is true, the score gaps between mesh shader on and off should be very little for Radeon.

meshshader.png
 
Seanspeed said:
a 1080Ti is just basically unusable trash
Click to expand...
The 1080Ti had fulfilled it's purpose, lasting from 2017 to 2023, 6 years is more than enough. In the times of old, the 1080Ti would've become obsolete within a couple of years. We've quickly transitioned from DX5 in 1997 to DX11 in 2008. Meaning 6 major DirectX versions in the span of 11 years, each version obsoleting the one before it. DX9 itself had multiple versions obsoleting each other, when DX9c came with it's Shader Model 3 obsoleted the DX9b cards before it (with their Shader Model 2). We've had a good hiatus with DX11 and DX12 when DX11 cards extended their DX11 support into DX12 support. That hiatus should have ended with the release of DXR and DX12U after it but it didn't, and now it's happening. People shouldn't feel suprised, instead they should prepare for this, as we've had enough of a transition period already.

At any rate, the 1080Ti and the Pascal archeticture in general should be compared to it's period correct competitor, which is Vega and Polaris. They all lack mesh shaders, which one would come up on top?
 
Interesting comment from DF on the RDNA1 situation with Mesh Shaders (timestamped).


0:00:00 Introduction
0:00:45 News 01: Alan Wake 2: a tech masterpiece
0:34:12 News 02: New PS5 needs internet to pair disc drive
0:42:18 News 03: MGS Master Collection Volume 1 released
0:58:16 News 04: MGS Delta Snake Eater demoed
1:07:37 News 05: Star Citizen improvements, new content shown off at CitizenCon
1:21:48 Supporter Q1: Given that Alan Wake 2 doesn’t support Pascal GPUs, is it time for a GTX 1080/Ti eulogy?
1:28:51 Supporter Q2: Any thoughts on Intel’s 14th gen CPUs?
1:31:24 Supporter Q3: How could Horizon: Zero Dawn and TLOU 2 be meaningfully remastered for PS5?
1:40:53 Supporter Q4: Are better visual features really worth the image quality hit on consoles?
1:49:10 Supporter Q5: What are John’s impressions of the Meta Quest 3?
 
Last edited:
Seanspeed said:
Alan Wake 2 also conveniently has VERY limited draw distances for the vast majority of the game. This is undoubtedly helping quite a bit in this regard.

Also, speaking of, Rich(DF) did testing on non-mesh shader GPU's and found that while the 5700XT does struggle, it seems to be able to manage a *nearly* playable level of performance while a 1080Ti is just basically unusable trash, barely scraping 20fps. Thought that was interesting as I'm not sure what would be causing that discrepancy. Also, he tests a 1660Ti, which is the non-RT Turing part, and that does seem to have mesh shader support and runs ok as a result.
Click to expand...

Pascal was not very good at Async Compute and that probably plays a large role on it doing quite badly.

Regards,
SB
 
DavidGraham said:
The 1080Ti had fulfilled it's purpose, lasting from 2017 to 2023, 6 years is more than enough. In the times of old, the 1080Ti would've become obsolete within a couple of years. We've quickly transitioned from DX5 in 1997 to DX11 in 2008. Meaning 6 major DirectX versions in the span of 11 years, each version obsoleting the one before it. DX9 itself had multiple versions obsoleting each other, when DX9c came with it's Shader Model 3 obsoleted the DX9b cards before it (with their Shader Model 2). We've had a good hiatus with DX11 and DX12 when DX11 cards extended their DX11 support into DX12 support. That hiatus should have ended with the release of DXR and DX12U after it but it didn't, and now it's happening. People shouldn't feel suprised, instead they should prepare for this, as we've had enough of a transition period already.

At any rate, the 1080Ti and the Pascal archeticture in general should be compared to it's period correct competitor, which is Vega and Polaris. They all lack mesh shaders, which one would come up on top?
Click to expand...
I haven’t seen any tests of Vega or Polaris. I’d also be interested in seeing GCN.
 
Bludd said:
yeah but its over 6 years old, thats pretty good, unless you bought it last year or something
Click to expand...
Got it in 2019 when it was still the best GPU available. Benchmarks without RT it was better even than the early RTX GPUs. Still kind of a shame. Still has a lot of performance under there.


But what to do? This is how business works
 
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