Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

[Below2D]

It's always been like and there's been various developers confirm it over the year.

There was a develop in here years ago that said PS2 got the most time and effort as the install base was huge and Xbox and GC time was to get the games to a stage where they were 'good enough' - I'll have to try and dig post out for you.

The platform with the largest install base, and thus with largest potential for sales is the one that gets the most attention in the development process.

PS5's install base is touching 2:1 now so it's in developers best interests to ensure that version is the best it can be as it gives them access to the most sales potential, and thus the potential for the most money to be made.

During the PS2 era, this made a lot more sense because all three consoles had very different architectures. Nonetheless, the Xbox was still far more powerful and more often than not got the better version of multiplats. Hell, it wasn’t even uncommon for the GC to have advantages over the PS2 in some games.

What I do want to know is, how much can we really attribute to "they optimize more for the PS5" to the current performance disparities. Additionally, I don’t think this reasoning holds much water either because the differences are generally so minimal that the performance profile of either console isn’t enough to sway a buyer one way or the other, or even hurt the potential sales of one platform. The PS5 running 15% worse wouldn’t impact sales much.

Seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy to speculate that the Xbox will run better due to partial specs and then go "Well, PS5 gets more optimized anyway," when those advantages don’t materialize. No one can prove or disprove these claims so they don’t seem particularly useful. This puzzles me further when consoles don't even hold that much of an advantage over similarly specced PC parts like they used to. Neither console seems particularly well optimized the majority of the time.

 

[Below2D]

there’s been a specific pattern of Xbox coming out of the gates with frame rate issues that over time are ironed out.

Specifically when it comes to optimization I’m referring to frame rate issues. Resolution isn’t something that typically improves with patches.

Is it just Xbox? From what I've seen, it seems PS5 benefits from these updates as well. Games like A Plague Tale: Requiem, Jedi Survivor, or Gotham Knights got performance updates that benefitted both consoles and not just one or the other. I can't really think of a game off the top of my head that performed worse on the SX initially and then better after an update.

 

[iroboto]

During the PS2 era, this made a lot more sense because all three consoles had very different architectures. Nonetheless, the Xbox was still far more powerful and more often than not got the better version of multiplats. Hell, it wasn’t even uncommon for the GC to have advantages over the PS2 in some games.

What I do want to know is, how much can we really attribute to "they optimize more for the PS5" to the current performance disparities. Additionally, I don’t think this reasoning holds much water either because the differences are generally so minimal that the performance profile of either console isn’t enough to sway a buyer one way or the other, or even hurt the potential sales of one platform. The PS5 running 15% worse wouldn’t impact sales much.

Seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy to speculate that the Xbox will run better due to partial specs and then go "Well, PS5 gets more optimized anyway," when those advantages don’t materialize. No one can prove or disprove these claims so they don’t seem particularly useful. This puzzles me further when consoles don't even hold that much of an advantage over similarly specced PC parts like they used to. Neither console seems particularly well optimized the majority of the time.

We’re just referring to hitches here.
It’s easy to tell when you’re hitting GPU limits because the frame rate will dip consistently over time instead of awkward hard spikes.

So when we talk of optimization, if the frame rate is consistently low or below target, that’s a problem, either they pushed the settings too high, or if the developers have done the math and know the hardware is capable of it, it is optimization required.

Developers do not go into making games blindly, my experience applying to Ubisoft is that they do a lot of calculations upfront with triangles per second, etc. they know the theoretical limits of how hard they can push and how fast the player should be able to move. They have a pretty good idea what each console is capable of, they should have settings that work.

Resolution differences are awash because of drs. But frame rate hitching and spiking comes across as an optimization problem, that can be cleaned up if they can track down what causes it.

 

[iroboto]

Is it just Xbox? From what I've seen, it seems PS5 benefits from these updates as well. Games like A Plague Tale: Requiem, Jedi Survivor, or Gotham Knights got performance updates that benefitted both consoles and not just one or the other. I can't really think of a game off the top of my head that performed worse on the SX initially and then better after an update.

No it’s not just Xbox. Definitely both platforms have had titles that could clearly require more time baking and both have titles that improve over time. It’s definitely not a situation where 1 is running perfectly and the other is running poorly. Both will usually have issues, ps5 just ships with less problems, which is indicative of what we’re referring to.

I don’t have games in recent memory largely because I’m less engaged on the forum lately. Thinking back;

Control sticks out a lot.
I think also one of the RE games as well pops to Mind.
Elden ring.

I recall Baldurs Gate coming up, and as I indicated in that thread it was given no priority. Even in the leaks it’s listed there: https://www.destructoid.com/microsoft-baldurs-gate-3-second-run-rpg-xbox-leak/

As a second run, or in other words waiting for exclusivity period to end (Stadia) before releasing again on Xbox. Well stadia died, and Sony pushed ahead with funding which is why we saw it show up on PS5 suddenly. And Xbox is still largely unannounced. But movement in the gaming scene has allowed them to drop requirements to get the title rushed onto Xbox earlier. It’s arriving months after ps5 on a rush job.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1708136497285627963

The question is where is this potential Arkham Knight RTX (?) patch coming from - Nvidia solely, or WB games? I'd be more surprised by the latter than the former, but if Nvidia is doing it, I'm wondering how - I thought Remix required games to be DX8?

If they do produce this, hope there's just an option for traditional rendering but with DLSS for those of us without the grunt to run it with full RT features. DLSS alone would be a massive upgrade.

 

[pjbliverpool]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1708136497285627963

The question is where is this potential Arkham Knight RTX (?) patch coming from - Nvidia solely, or WB games? I'd be more surprised by the latter than the former, but if Nvidia is doing it, I'm wondering how - I thought Remix required games to be DX8?

If they do produce this, hope there's just an option for traditional rendering but with DLSS for those of us without the grunt to run it with full RT features. DLSS alone would be a massive upgrade.

Jeez imagine a PT version of that game with RR... I really hope its NV doing the patch and they go all out on it.

 

[techuse]

An Arkham Knight improvement would be great. Just adding a quality AA would be a massive improvement.

 

[arandomguy]

The question is where is this potential Arkham Knight RTX (?) patch coming from - Nvidia solely, or WB games? I'd be more surprised by the latter than the former, but if Nvidia is doing it, I'm wondering how - I thought Remix required games to be DX8?

If they do produce this, hope there's just an option for traditional rendering but with DLSS for those of us without the grunt to run it with full RT features. DLSS alone would be a massive upgrade.

Remix itself in terms of the official release is DX8 or DX9 fixed pipeline only. From what I remember with the initial Remix Q/As when it was asked the answer was that supporting beyond the current implementation (especially in a generic sense) is just much more complex as opposed to undoable. It's also worth mentioning for example there is a mod project to enable path tracing via reshade I believe for all DX9, DX10 and DX11 games.

Nvidia does have it's own game studio, they have a tight partnership with in terms of the Arkham Games, and they could work with UE directly and have access to the games source (or at least shaders). We can't assume they would be limited to just to using off the shelf Remix for a projection like.

 

[arandomguy]

It's always been like and there's been various developers confirm it over the year.

There was a developer in here years ago that said PS2 got the most time and effort as the install base was huge, and the Xbox and GC dev time was to get the games to a stage where they were 'good enough' - I'll have to try and dig post out for you.

The platform with the largest install base, and thus with largest potential for sales is the one that gets the most attention in the development process.

PS5's install base is touching 2:1 now so it's in developers best interests to ensure that version is the best it can be as it gives them access to the most sales potential, and thus the potential for the most money to be made.

The Xbox also has an added issue issue here in that it's really split across 2 consoles, which would mean the XSX market share is even lower. Does the XBS outsell the XSX?

I do wonder how much Microsoft considered this issue. They were likely already going to have essentially amortization disadvantage (across hardware and software), having 2 consoles would only make that worse.

If you're a developer for instance in terms of resource allocation my guess is even for Xbox optimizations the priority is likely getting it to run well on the XBS (which might be the harder task) as opposed to trying to showcase the XSX versus the PS5.

On Microsoft's side any abstraction that make XBS/XSX cross development easier would likely have a trade off also of being essentially less efficient.

 

[Riddlewire]

The Xbox also has an added issue issue here in that it's really split across 2 consoles, which would mean the XSX market share is even lower.

It's probably even a little bit worse than that, since most games are going to be on PC as well, and developers might just try to split the difference with an all-purpose DX12 build. Works on PC, XSX, and XSS, but ideal for none of them.
That might also explain why PS5 can have better shadows than a high spec PC (Payday 3 has this issue).

 

[Nesh]

Er difference is, that the PS5 was punching above it's weight even before its install base became significantly more than the Series X. It was showing unexpected parity or slightly better performance during launch in some games. Also the Series X is supposedly very easy to develop for on top of having more theoretical performance. The PS5 and Series X are extremely similar in architecture. It's not like MP games are using any special PS5 sauce or hardware feature absent from the Series X.

 

[see colon]

Er difference is, that the PS5 was punching above it's weight even before its install base became significantly more than the Series X. It was showing unexpected parity or slightly better performance during launch in some games. Also the Series X is supposedly very easy to develop for on top of having more theoretical performance. The PS5 and Series X are extremely similar in architecture. It's not like MP games are using any special PS5 sauce or hardware feature absent from the Series X.

Relatively punching above it's weight. I think in a lot of ways, Xbox consoles this gen have been punching below their weight. Aren't there a handful of games that run at higher resolutions or settings on PS4Pro than Series S?

 

[HolySmoke]

Relatively punching above it's weight. I think in a lot of ways, Xbox consoles this gen have been punching below their weight. Aren't there a handful of games that run at higher resolutions or settings on PS4Pro than Series S?

I think there's a few that run at higher res on PS4 Pro but at 30fps instead of 60fps. I don't think that's out of the ordinary given a framerate differential.

I think it's mainly the XSX that seems to be underperforming. I have my PS5/XSX both plugged into a wattage meter and there's often a huge disparity in power draw even while running the same games. Both peak at ~230w but only the PS5 commonly sustains that. It's not unusual to see games run at 220-230w on PS5 that only run at 160-180w on the Xbox. Variable clock rates on PS5 being the likeliest reason.

This is in contrast to the XSS which is almost always running at or near peak wattage.

 

[see colon]

I think there's a few that run at higher res on PS4 Pro but at 30fps instead of 60fps. I don't think that's out of the ordinary given a framerate differential.

I think it's mainly the XSX that seems to be underperforming. I have my PS5/XSX both plugged into a wattage meter and there's often a huge disparity in power draw even while running the same games. Both peak at ~230w but only the PS5 commonly sustains that. It's not unusual to see games run at 220-230w on PS5 that only run at 160-180w on the Xbox. Variable clock rates on PS5 being the likeliest reason.

This is in contrast to the XSS which is almost always running at or near peak wattage.

Street Fighter 6 runs at 1440p on PS4Pro and 1080p on Series S. Both are 60fps, and while the Series S has some extra features, textures are better on PS4.

 

[HolySmoke]

Street Fighter 6 runs at 1440p on PS4Pro and 1080p on Series S. Both are 60fps, and while the Series S has some extra features, textures are better on PS4.

You're right, I had forgotten about that. That was definitely a strange case whatever the reason.

 

[iroboto]

I think there's a few that run at higher res on PS4 Pro but at 30fps instead of 60fps. I don't think that's out of the ordinary given a framerate differential.

I think it's mainly the XSX that seems to be underperforming. I have my PS5/XSX both plugged into a wattage meter and there's often a huge disparity in power draw even while running the same games. Both peak at ~230w but only the PS5 commonly sustains that. It's not unusual to see games run at 220-230w on PS5 that only run at 160-180w on the Xbox. Variable clock rates on PS5 being the likeliest reason.

This is in contrast to the XSS which is almost always running at or near peak wattage.

Voltage is cubic with clock speed. It’s really hard to make a determination of how well hardware is being utilized just through power draw. With ps5 having a higher clock speed it’s naturally going to draw more power, as going wide reduces power consumption, otherwise we would all have single core 10Thz chips. But the wattage to support that would require more watt/cm2
Than a nuclear power plant could put out.

We are definitely hitting a wall., you can beat physics by making things smaller and smaller, the heat is just insane. We can see with iPhone 15, they are discussing overheating issues on the latest node.

 

[HolySmoke]

Voltage is cubic with clock speed. It’s really hard to make a determination of how well hardware is being utilized just through power draw. With ps5 having a higher clock speed it’s naturally going to draw more power, as going wide reduces power consumption, otherwise we would all have single core 10Thz chips. But the wattage to support that would require more watt/cm2
Than a nuclear power plant could put out.

We are definitely hitting a wall., you can beat physics by making things smaller and smaller, the heat is just insane. We can see with iPhone 15, they are discussing overheating issues on the latest node.

I know, I was just throwing it out there. I mainly find it interesting because the Xbox has fixed clock frequencies which gives it a bit more weight.

My surprise isn't that PS5 running at 230w but that the Xbox is often so far from it. I wouldn't pay much attention to a 20w difference but we're talking 50-70w differences in some cases.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Er difference is, that the PS5 was punching above it's weight even before its install base became significantly more than the Series X. It was showing unexpected parity or slightly better performance during launch in some games. Also the Series X is supposedly very easy to develop for on top of having more theoretical performance. The PS5 and Series X are extremely similar in architecture. It's not like MP games are using any special PS5 sauce or hardware feature absent from the Series X.

Determination of which will be the lead platform at the start of a generation will largely come down to which was the lead platform for the previous generation. For this generation that means that starting this generation the PS5 was the lead platform for most developers.

Regards,
SB

 

[gamervivek]

Er difference is, that the PS5 was punching above it's weight even before its install base became significantly more than the Series X. It was showing unexpected parity or slightly better performance during launch in some games. Also the Series X is supposedly very easy to develop for on top of having more theoretical performance. The PS5 and Series X are extremely similar in architecture. It's not like MP games are using any special PS5 sauce or hardware feature absent from the Series X.

Not that surprising for me considering the 290X/390X vs. FuryX matchup where the latter was a much bigger chip shader number-wise but the front-end and the ROPs remained the same. The performance improvement was half of the TFLOPs increase and they would have been roughly on par if the former was higher clocked like PS5 vs XBSX and enjoyed the same new arch benefits.

The cut-down 290X/390X chips were similar in arrangement to the 5700XT which in turn was similar to PS5 GPU.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

There's nothing amazing about this. Sony's console sells better, and it gets more love and care from developers. Not to say devs don't love and care the Xbox versions, but at the end of the day, they make their games around the Playstation.

Making technology decisions which cannot be fundamentally changed for another 6-8 years in a market where technology advances so quickly absolutely is amazing. Existing in a market which is predicated on low cost and volume sales where can be caught out by unforeseen issues like the semiconductor drought of 2020-2022, and where your device is never going to be the largest platform, is tough.

This goes for both Microsoft and Sony. Every perceived advantage that consoles have is also a disadvantage. Fixed hardware specs? Sure, from limited hardware choices to begin with and being saddled with that technology, which much be able to be produced cheap, for almost a decade.