Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2022]

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its a bit easier to stay tone deaf on price points on PC because most vendors release a family of GPUs, so the market will find the GPU that fits their budget.
It's normal to want to get as much as possible for their money however, and that will run across the entire family.
It's just weird. What you say makes total sense but other PC reviewers aren't exactly saying the same thing about it as him. So it's kind of weird to hear like "that's just how we should take it" from Richard.
 
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Widespread pandemic and the ensuring economic chaos has resulted in over a year straight of semiconductor etc shortages, at a certain point I think you can just wait if you’re price sensitive.
 
Good review I thought. I like the DF style of showing real time normalised relative performance. And I loved the bonus console comparison at the end.

When you're seeing a card like this pitted against other high end PC cards, and often loosing, it's tempted to start thinking of it as 'slow'. Those console comparisons offer a reality check in that regard as to how crazy fast it actually is.
 
You dont need 4070Ti/4080 or 4090s. Its not even needed with a 3080 generally….. i3/6700XT or 3060Ti does above console performance.
These 1000usd mainboards and gpus are a choice.
 
Is it just me who is a bit disappointed by Richards tone in this video. I don't even play on PC and the "these things cost more to make people just have to get over it or buy used" dismissal of the huge price increase relative to people's wallets is very off putting

Well DF hasn't exactly held back on their thoughts of value with the 4080 before (and Richard re-iterates its poor value at the end of this video) so not sure you're characterizing it that fairly. If there's any tonal shift I think it's perhaps due to the fact that this card is "$799" (cough) as opposed to $1k+, and now we've also seen what AMD could bring to the table.

The prices are prohibitive for most gamers, yes. But the argument that Nvidia had 'completely lost it' only works insofar as to what their main competitor could produce on a similar process node at a similar price point. AMD is struggling in GPU market share, they have every incentive to increase their standing amongst PC gamers and stress their value proposition. And yet, RNDA3 is...fine. It's uh, competitive. Kind of. In some ways.

The simple fact of the matter seems to be that nobody seems able/willing to produce these new GPU's at a sufficient volume at a discounted price we all expect at the moment. The marketshare is there for the taking if AMD wants to step up and drop the 7900XT to $699, but they can't. Hell, the 7900xt - the one where even AMD-friendly reviewers saw as a cynical upsell and a waste at $899 - is still well above it's MSRP here in Canada ($1400 ffs), for the ones that are in stock at least! Even Ampere and RDNA2 cards have shot up in price again.

I mean, the customers have spoken too - sales of GPU's are way down. Apparently though, not down enough that retailers are desperate - if stock was overflowing, we would be seeing far larger discounts, rather than 'deals' where we're only slightly above MSRP. So I think this is largely a question of manufacturing capacity, at least at the price many would find reasonable. Neither AMD or Nvidia want sales this depressed, but they can't produce enough at the currently inflated price, so why bother garnering customer excitement for orders you can't possibly hope to fulfill?

It's not just GPU's, PC hardware in general is crazy now.

Seeing single socket motherboards that cost £1000 plus is insane.

The utility of those motherboards relative to the $150-$200 models though is highly questionable. I'd argue that outside of GPU's, PC hardware is actually in a relatively good spot right now. DDR5 still holds a premium but it's consistently dropping, SSD's are cheaper than ever, Intel just introduced a 14-core i5 for $230. The gaming advantage you get from going from mid->ultra high end on CPU's and motherboards is extremely marginal, so there's even less pressure to go for broke there, unlike GPU's.
 
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Is it just me who is a bit disappointed by Richards tone in this video. I don't even play on PC and the "these things cost more to make people just have to get over it or buy used" dismissal of the huge price increase relative to people's wallets is very off putting
He mentioned it. It rather annoys me when YouTubers like Gamers Nexus cry about the price for 8 minutes. I just don't have time for that. From my point of view Digital Foundry is more serious than almost all channels. Hopefully they won't be influenced too much by YouTube commentators.

I remember a time when an RTX 3070 cost 1600 € and a RTX 3080 at least 2000 €. In real terms the RTX 3080 was hardly available for the 700 € MSRP for the longest time. Prices have already improved significantly compared to 2021 and 2022. For 800 € you get at least a product that can play everything well. I found the 3070 less interesting.
 
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He mentioned it. It rather annoys me when YouTubers like Gamers Nexus cry about the price for 8 minutes. I just don't have time for that. From my point of view Digital Foundry is more serious than almost all channels. Hopefully they won't be influenced too much by YouTube commentators.
I have my problems with what DIY PC channels focus on as I've mentioned before, but I really wouldn't classify Gamers Nexus as anywhere near the same general clickbaity nature of most. Steve can be extremely sardonic, but hell it's often necessary in contrast to the reams of dry, hard data they put out which can make their reviews a bit of a slog at times. They also back up their opinions on price with at least an attempt to put it into historical context, and certainly don't play favourites with any vendor. I think Steve's ire with the marketing spin that these companies provide is well warranted and frankly, his cynicism - especially one that's often employed against the huge waste of this industry - is actually under-represented in the tech youtube space which is filled with advertorial-style content.

Steve has also taken a very firm stance against ever doing sponsored content - something that DF certainly can't say.

I remember a time when an RTX 3070 cost 1600 € and a RTX 3080 at least 2000 €. In real terms the RTX 3080 was hardly available for the 700 € MSRP for the longest time. Prices have already improved significantly compared to 2021 and 2022. For 800 € you get at least a product that can play everything well. I found the 3070 less interesting.

It's equally silly to critique Nvidia/AMD for inflated retail prices during the crypto boom as it would be to tout any supposed 'value' now because the market is no longer artificially propped up by a massive pyramid scheme, I mean it obviously wasn't sustainable as a market for the cards to be used for their developed purpose. The critique of these prices is focused on their MSRP.
 
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You dont need 4070Ti/4080 or 4090s. Its not even needed with a 3080 generally….. i3/6700XT or 3060Ti does above console performance.
These 1000usd mainboards and gpus are a choice.
I guess so. But I guess there are people coming at it from a perspective of not being into PC gaming just to be on par or better than console but great for what they personally want. As you guys say though, it's possible those days are just over.

What I don't really get is people using the new pricing standard for going back to console gaming if they've been on PC. Clearly you can get better than console performance if you want. So why go to console? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons people game on PC beyond that. But I am not really sure about it
 
I guess so. But I guess there are people coming at it from a perspective of not being into PC gaming just to be on par or better than console but great for what they personally want. As you guys say though, it's possible those days are just over.

What I don't really get is people using the new pricing standard for going back to console gaming if they've been on PC. Clearly you can get better than console performance if you want. So why go to console? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons people game on PC beyond that. But I am not really sure about it

It's a combination of factors, but #stutterstruggle hasn't helped I'd guess. It's one thing if an 'unoptimized' port just meant that for roughly equivalent hardware, you might have to lower the resolution of the PC to be slightly below equivalent console res or just a lower level of reconstruction setting, if that was the only downside to poor ports then big whoop. It's that regardless of what you spend, in some cases you can be getting a decidedly worse experience, and the best case is you wait for a patch - if one ever comes. I can see people seeing these constant poor reviews and think why the hell should I pay more to take this gamble? I've seen plenty of people on other forums who have said "Fuck it, I just get new titles on my PS5 now as I don't want to deal this with this shit".

Also bear in mind that due to crypto we've seen these inflated prices several times over the past 5 years, it's not just the recent wave that's finally ebbed. It's always been there even when it wasn't on wild upswings, helping to always exaggerate the demand a bit. People who periodically check in to see what the cost of building a PC is may just have gotten tired of waiting. We'll see what the door finally being closed (fingers crossed) on GPU mining means in the coming years I guess, in the short term though due just to manufacturing capacity you're likely not going to see any major ASP reductions.
 
darn it's sad, 'cos 799$ actual MSRP would be a great price for this GPU, but here in Europe it will translate into a 1000-1100€ price. At 799$ the 4070 Ti uses nVidia GPUs from previous generations as doormats.

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darn it's sad, 'cos 799$ actual MSRP would be a great price for this GPU, but here in Europe it will translate into a 1000-1100€ price. At 799$ the 4070 Ti uses nVidia GPUs from previous generations as doormats.

Yeah, I think a disparity with how Rich may have framed this is he used the qualifier of "If it can be sold at its MSRP", whereas other reviewers are reviewing specific OEM models that are well above that. I doubt it will be available in Canada for under $1200.
 
Yeah, I think a disparity with how Rich may have framed this is he used the qualifier of "If it can be sold at its MSRP", whereas other reviewers are reviewing specific OEM models that are well above that. I doubt it will be available in Canada for under $1200.
don't remind me. I paid 1200 for my 3070 at Canada Computers. I'm still feeling the sting.
 
I guess so. But I guess there are people coming at it from a perspective of not being into PC gaming just to be on par or better than console but great for what they personally want. As you guys say though, it's possible those days are just over.

Its late so it could be that, but what days are over exactly?

What I don't really get is people using the new pricing standard for going back to console gaming if they've been on PC. Clearly you can get better than console performance if you want. So why go to console? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons people game on PC beyond that. But I am not really sure about it

That would be weird indeed. Im not seeing it happening either, that pc gamers are going 'back to console gaming', if these are originally console gamers then ye, perhaps. However i dont see the problem, the most popular choices have always been the XX60's class of GPU's, rarely the Titans and XX80's and now XX90's..... Same story for 1000 dollar mainboards and CPU's.
Its the entry/low/mid end that usually matters, and there things still look quite good (no idea about 4060 though price wise). However so far, a 6700/3060 teamed to 16gb, an nvme and a alder lake i3 or better will provide you with atleast console performance levels, mostly better. It wont run into the thousands of dollars, higher than the consoles perhaps, but not that much so. In many EU countries a PS5 is running anywhere between 800 to 900usd new.... thats ballpark the system i mentioned.
PC gaming, though generally viewed as such, isnt so much about outperforming consoles, their namely in a complete different (user) market. Even a 1060 or 2060 user isnt even caring about console performance because its a different market alltogether. Thats why PC and console gaming have co-existed for so many decades now, they arent really competing in that sense.


The new pricing standard can be looked at from a different angle aswell, the entry/console matching GPU's havent changed so much prise-wise, its just that the roof of high-end has become so much higher than before.

Again, as a PC gamer i dont see the consoles as a competitor, again they have co-existed perfectly fine since practically the beginning of gaming and they will untill the death of local-gaming alltogether.

It's a combination of factors, but #stutterstruggle hasn't helped I'd guess. It's one thing if an 'unoptimized' port just meant that for roughly equivalent hardware, you might have to lower the resolution of the PC to be slightly below equivalent console res or just a lower level of reconstruction setting, if that was the only downside to poor ports then big whoop. It's that regardless of what you spend, in some cases you can be getting a decidedly worse experience, and the best case is you wait for a patch - if one ever comes. I can see people seeing these constant poor reviews and think why the hell should I pay more to take this gamble? I've seen plenty of people on other forums who have said "Fuck it, I just get new titles on my PS5 now as I don't want to deal this with this shit".

Also bear in mind that due to crypto we've seen these inflated prices several times over the past 5 years, it's not just the recent wave that's finally ebbed. It's always been there even when it wasn't on wild upswings, helping to always exaggerate the demand a bit. People who periodically check in to see what the cost of building a PC is may just have gotten tired of waiting. We'll see what the door finally being closed (fingers crossed) on GPU mining means in the coming years I guess, in the short term though due just to manufacturing capacity you're likely not going to see any major ASP reductions.

While i generally agree on this post, i think the 'decline of pc gaming' or the dangers of that, its not something that really concerns me. Not much more so than the 'decline of console gaming'. Both are not happening, no both are growing still.

but here in Europe

I know right. Everything in EU is more expensive, everything.
 
What I said "those days are over" I was referring to the expectation of many people that the 70 and 80 class of cards were not halo products.

Now like the 90 series it seems like majority of people won't be getting 80s or 70s and settle for budget and entree level builds and it's making people not use to being priced out of those sectors antsy and blaming a variety of things. I think they are valid but I also think to some degree the "things cost more to make" is also true.

Ie, In many other industries things are clearly sold to consumers in a different reality than what the company is actually paying for such things just because they can get away with it, so I think it gives people a bad impression about AMD and nvidia, especially after the crypto fiasco.

And while Nvidia and amd probably are shaving some portion off the top before it's passed onto consumers with their latest offerings, I also think it's fair that the clear realities of trying to manufacture shit with our current global situation is having a huge impact on things.
 
The utility of those motherboards relative to the $150-$200 models though is highly questionable.

But it's the message it sends to other vendors.... If 'X' are charging $1000+ for their motherboard and it's only a little better than ours then we can charge $800.

It's what happened with GPU's, AMD saw that Nvidia were charging silly money and realised their GPU's were not that far away from in terms of performance so jacked there prices up too.
 
I have my problems with what DIY PC channels focus on as I've mentioned before, but I really wouldn't classify Gamers Nexus as anywhere near the same general clickbaity nature of most. Steve can be extremely sardonic, but hell it's often necessary in contrast to the reams of dry, hard data they put out which can make their reviews a bit of a slog at times. They also back up their opinions on price with at least an attempt to put it into historical context, and certainly don't play favourites with any vendor. I think Steve's ire with the marketing spin that these companies provide is well warranted and frankly, his cynicism - especially one that's often employed against the huge waste of this industry - is actually under-represented in the tech youtube space which is filled with advertorial-style content.

Steve has also taken a very firm stance against ever doing sponsored content - something that DF certainly can't say.
I used to think Gamers Nexus was good but the development is clearly negative.

Why does the RTX 4080 belong in the trash can? Why is it demonstratively thrown in there?
Why did such an unstructured video come with the RTX 4070 Ti in which there is almost only crying?
 
I used to think Gamers Nexus was good but the development is clearly negative.

Why does the RTX 4080 belong in the trash can? Why is it demonstratively thrown in there?
Why did such an unstructured video come with the RTX 4070 Ti in which there is almost only crying?

I do admire GN but I didn't think much of the 4070Ti video. He consistently referred to it as being the same or virtually the same performance as the 3080 which is clearly not the case even by the benchmarks he was showing. And at only $100 more by MSRP it's clearly the better buy right now. Not that I'm at all happy with the price given it's a new generation and x070 class part, but it's not the disaster he made it out to be at all.
 
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