Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2021]

[davis.anthony]

We never saw the patented tessellated toad tech again :/

Man the nostalgia of hype for "next gen graphics" back on those days was unreal

There was just move tech demos or tech trailers back then......we very rarely get a glimpse at the behind the scenes like we used to.

I miss video's like this....

 

[snc]

What's more advanced technically, killzone shadow fall or crysis 3?

To be honest crysis 3 wasnt jaw dropping on promiere (far cry1 and crysis1 were), when people saw Killzone Shadow Fall and Ryse Son of rome there was 0 doubt we entered new generation

 

[PSman1700]

when people saw Killzone Shadow Fall and Ryse Son of rome there was 0 doubt we entered new generation

God i miss those times.

 

[Arwin]

God i miss those times.

I had That same feeling with Ratchet & Clank though.

 

[davis.anthony]

What's more advanced technically, killzone shadow fall or crysis 3?

Lack of PBR materials really lets Crysis 3 down for me and gives Killzone my vote.

PBR materials became the 'look' of last generation and made such a difference to graphics, one look at Crysis 3 and you can tell what generation it's from. To me it looks like a 6th generation game but on a shit load of steroids.

When they (Crytek) finally played around with PBR in Ryse it looked phenomenal, especially the parts of the game with man made materials, it really made Crysis 3 look old and doesn't get enough recognition for it's visuals.

 

[zed]

to me killzone went backwards with killzone 4, it became way too clean. Should of just upped the resolution of kz2/3 4x @ 60fps (not sure if ps4's cpu could handle 60fps though)

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I don't understand how DF often claims how the Series S is such a great console that produces great visuals at a reduced form factor and power consumption for 1080p-1440p resolutions, but the RX 6600 - which will play every single game available on the Series S at significantly increased IQ settings - is somehow a very limited and non-future proof graphics card that no one should buy.

Sure, complaining about actual cost of the graphics card is completely valid as the cost of a PC GPU in 2021 depends only on mining profitability and not gaming performance (though comparing MSRPs is a bit naïve at this point, considering the cheapest RTX 3060 costs 150€ more than the cheapest RX6600).
I just don't get how the RX6600 is so bad while the Series S is so good. It's the same GPU architecture and it'll play the same games.

 

[Nesh]

I don't understand how DF often claims how great the Series S is such a great console that produces great visuals at a reduced form factor and power consumption for 1080p-1440p resolutions, but the RX 6600 - which will play every single game available on the Series S at significantly increased IQ settings - is somehow a very limited and non-future proof graphics card that no one should buy.

Sure, complaining about actual cost of the graphics card is completely valid as the cost of a PC GPU in 2021 depends only on mining profitability and not gaming performance (though comparing MSRPs is a bit naïve at this point, considering the cheapest RTX 3060 costs 150€ more than the cheapest RX6600).
I just don't get how the RX6600 is so bad while the Series S is so good. It's the same GPU architecture and it'll play the same games.

The Series S costs just €300 alone and it's for the more casual market. It is all you need to play games on it.
How much does the RX6600 cost in the real world and with everything else?

 

[davis.anthony]

The Series S costs just €300 alone and it's for the more casual market. It is all you need to play games on it.
How much does the RX6600 cost in the real world and with everything else?

People who are in the market for that kind of GPU aren't the people who'll be upgrading the rest of the system with it.

If they already have an 8 core CPU from a few years ago they'll likely be fine for the whole console generation and only need to worry about the GPU cost and not the cost of a full system.

 

[PSman1700]

I had That same feeling with Ratchet & Clank though.

If your talking about PS5 version (rift apart), that wasnt a launch game, neither did it have the same leap and impact as KZ ShadowFall did at launch for PS4.

I don't understand how DF often claims how the Series S is such a great console that produces great visuals at a reduced form factor and power consumption for 1080p-1440p resolutions, but the RX 6600 - which will play every single game available on the Series S at significantly increased IQ settings - is somehow a very limited and non-future proof graphics card that no one should buy.

Sure, complaining about actual cost of the graphics card is completely valid as the cost of a PC GPU in 2021 depends only on mining profitability and not gaming performance (though comparing MSRPs is a bit naïve at this point, considering the cheapest RTX 3060 costs 150€ more than the cheapest RX6600).
I just don't get how the RX6600 is so bad while the Series S is so good. It's the same GPU architecture and it'll play the same games.

Maybe because the XSS is the only hardware you can actually get? PS5, XSX and gpu's are almost impossible to get due to scalpers and miners.

 

[zed]

I don't understand how DF often claims how the Series S is such a great console that produces great visuals at a reduced form factor and power consumption for 1080p-1440p resolutions, but the RX 6600 - which will play every single game available on the Series S at significantly increased IQ settings - is somehow a very limited and non-future proof graphics card that no one should buy.

I doubt very much they are claiming the series S is a great console, its a budget console aimed at those that can't afford the series X (or maybe only have a 1080p TV, though often from what I see S = 30fps X = 60fps)
Mate series S is far better value than a RX6600, $299 vs $329 (plus you need to have the rest of the PC), A new PC I doubt you can buy anything that matches a series S for under $500

 

[iroboto]

I don't understand how DF often claims how the Series S is such a great console that produces great visuals at a reduced form factor and power consumption for 1080p-1440p resolutions, but the RX 6600 - which will play every single game available on the Series S at significantly increased IQ settings - is somehow a very limited and non-future proof graphics card that no one should buy.

Sure, complaining about actual cost of the graphics card is completely valid as the cost of a PC GPU in 2021 depends only on mining profitability and not gaming performance (though comparing MSRPs is a bit naïve at this point, considering the cheapest RTX 3060 costs 150€ more than the cheapest RX6600).
I just don't get how the RX6600 is so bad while the Series S is so good. It's the same GPU architecture and it'll play the same games.

I imagine this is coming down to price here.
$399 CAD for Series S vs the $499 for 6600 (the cheapest I could find). The biggest difference is that the Series S is all in 1, and the 6600 not.
Consoles will always be supported for it's lifetime, in which future proofing isn't really a topic for consoles, whereas GPUs can drop off quicker in the PC market as games are continually pushed forward; I suspect one would look at the longevitiy of a card based around how long it can stay relevant before you want to upgrade.

With a 3060 you have access to DLSS titles, that could extend the shelf life significantly if you're interested in 1080p DLSS. RT performance is better on the 3060 significantly, and that also leads to extended shelf life.

FSR is still trying to prove itself, I think over time if it does improve, maybe it can extend the life of a 6600 as well. RT, I'm not sure how 6600 can succeed over the 3060 here unless it's close to off.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The Series S costs just €300 alone and it's for the more casual market. It is all you need to play games on it.
How much does the RX6600 cost in the real world and with everything else?

I imagine this is coming down to price here.
$399 CAD for Series S vs the $499 for 6600 (the cheapest I could find). The biggest difference is that the Series S is all in 1, and the 6600 not.

Yes, and as I wrote above I agree with the price complaints. Alex does state that RX6600 is a card that should cost around $250 and I agree with that part. What I don't agree with are the complaints about lack of future-proofness of the card.

Consoles will always be supported for it's lifetime, in which future proofing isn't really a topic for consoles, whereas GPUs can drop off quicker in the PC market as games are continually pushed forward; I suspect one would look at the longevitiy of a card based around how long it can stay relevant before you want to upgrade.

The RX6600 will last at least as much as the Series S because it'll run the same games. Microsoft effectively ended the console exclusivity so if you can play a game on the Series S, you'll definitely be able to play it on a RX6600 as well, with higher settings.

ith a 3060 you have access to DLSS titles, that could extend the shelf life significantly if you're interested in 1080p DLSS. RT performance is better on the 3060 significantly, and that also leads to extended shelf life.

I'm also not arguing that the 3060 - if it could be bought for $400 - wouldn't be a better value than the RX6600 for $330. But the reality is tat the former is now going for $850 in the US which is over twice the MSRP of $399 that DF claim in their video.

Due to its mining profitability, the RX6600 was always going to sell for >$500. AMD putting a MSRP of $330 instead of e.g. $280 simply means that the IHV is getting a larger share of the inevitable $500 pie.
Save for the rare stock drops in AMD.com, the MSRP nowadays means squat in the graphics card's final price.

Comparing GPU MSRPs in 2021 is such a useless and naive conversation... It's like me saying that no one should buy the RTX 3070 Ti for $600 MSRP because for only $100 more we can get the much better RTX 3080 ($700 MSRP).
Well good luck finding that 3080 for $700. I know I would have bought one for that price when I was shopping for a high-end GPU a couple of months ago.

 

[iroboto]

Yes, and as I wrote above I agree with the price complaints. Alex does state that RX6600 is a card that should cost around $250 and I agree with that part. What I don't agree with are the complaints about lack of future-proofness of the card.

It's a comment with respect to the price point. Like what if the 6600 was $50. Then that would just be an incredible deal. It has to all come back to price, and he's looking at the price point relative to the competition and seeing less of a runway here. (the competition being other GPUs). The competition comparison shouldn't be the Series S (being a console).

It's important to recognize the needs of the population here. Series S is designed for 1080p and below. There's a lot of people on PC that are moving to 1440p.
Console players are used to 30fps and lower resolutions like 720p.
PC players typically play @ 60fps, and things look really awful now when they dip below 1080p on a monitor.

These are things I think are important to point out when we talk about shelf life.

If as a PC player you've upgraded to a 1440p or 4K screen, or any sort of ultrawide monitor. This video card will not be able to handle it. You'll need to upgrade again.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

It's a comment with respect to the price point. Like what if the 6600 was $50. Then that would just be an incredible deal. It has to all come back to price, and he's looking at the price point relative to the competition and seeing less of a runway here.

But what is the price point relative to the competition?
The 3060 in the EU seems to have stabilized at the 700-750€ price point, and in the US it's much higher at >$800. We won't know for how much we'll be able to get a RX6600 in the long run, but for now they can be bought for a little over 500€.

These cards are realistically on completely different price brackets, and the reality is miles away from their "$330 vs $399" comparison. No tech reviewer/commentator ever said "don't buy this 500€ GPU because that 700€ option is much better", it's a rather preposterous suggestion for people on a budget.


For those who did manage to buy a RX 6600 on release day for $330, the only card they could get for that price was a GTX 1660.
Is the RX 6600 for $330 that bad of a purchase when we compare that price to its actual competition?

 

[iroboto]

But what is the price point relative to the competition?
The 3060 in the EU seems to have stabilized at the 700-750€ price point, and in the US it's much higher at >$800. We won't know for how much we'll be able to get a RX6600 in the long run, but for now they can be bought for a little over 500€.

These cards are realistically on completely different price brackets, and the reality is miles away from their "$330 vs $399" comparison. No tech reviewer/commentator ever said "don't buy this 500€ GPU because that 700€ option is much better", it's a rather preposterous suggestion for people on a budget.

The price point should be compared at it's MSRP price, and not the scalping price, its the only sane way to do it since the card is designed for a specific price point, scalping is another issue entirely.
From a budget perspective, it still feels limited here. A budget PC build with this GPU is going to cost you a lot still, and you're looking at basically doing well with F2P style titles, which generally have lower graphical targets. I think from that perspective it's very good, but you could probably get away with a 1070 and do that. I think as long as more titles support FSR, then you'll get some mileage out of DXR support etc. But it's going to be a costly build for a 1080p FSR RT machine. In my mind, I think a used 1070 will support FSR, so if you don't need or care for RT (it being budget), why not stick with older tech.

You're almost better off just buying older used hardware I think if that is the type of gaming you want to do.

I think the only advantage this GPU has ultimately, is that if there is a move to RT only games, older tech drops off. This 6600 will keep moving forward and will become the baseline for the next generation of games. In which, you'd have to compare it against whether or not you should have spent a little more money for a 6600XT or a 3060/TI. My issue is that when this transition occurs, the newer budget cards will be much more capable at RT by then at least compared to this.

 

[Jay]

XSS is great console for 1080p at that price point.
You could buy a previous gen console for probably around the same price, but the XSS will out last it and has other benefits like m.2.

This is back to the PC is better than console discussions basically.

These type of comparisons need to be made in the same segment. Console to console, pc to pc.
The question is, is the RX6600 a good gpu in comparison to its competitors and its price.

With a 3060 you have access to DLSS titles, that could extend the shelf life significantly if you're interested in 1080p DLSS.

XeSS could potentially have an affect here also helping the RX6600

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The price point should be compared at it's MSRP price, and not the scalping price, its the only sane way to do it since the card is designed for a specific price point, scalping is another issue entirely.

Hard disagree here.

What matters is for how much a person can actually buy the graphics card for, and not the absolutely worthless number that is the MSRP on a graphics card in 2021.
The RX6600 was designed for the $330 price point just as much as the 3070 Ti was designed for the $600 price point (i.e. they were not). Scalping has been here for almost 2 years and is now part of the market, whether we like it or not.

You're almost better off just buying older used hardware I think if that is the type of gaming you want to do.

Unfortunately, you are not. The used market is just as inflated as the new market. Two months ago I sold my old Vega 64 from 2017 for 550€ (bought it for 500€ new on release week).

Another difference between buying a used card in 2017/18 and now is that if you don't know if that used Polaris, Vega or Pascal has been used 8-20 hours a week for gaming, or if it's been used 24/7 for 4 years on a mining operation.

The used market is also screwed up. There are no good choices but to go on AMD.com's weekly "lottery event" for getting cards at MSRP or Nvidia's similar events in the US/UK.

 

[iroboto]

Hard disagree here.

What matters is for how much a person can actually buy the graphics card for, and not the absolutely worthless number that is the MSRP on a graphics card in 2021.
The RX6600 was designed for the $330 price point just as much as the 3070 Ti was designed for the $600 price point (i.e. they were not). Scalping has been here for almost 2 years and is now part of the market, whether we like it or not.



Unfortunately, you are not. The used market is just as inflated as the new market. Two months ago I sold my old Vega 64 from 2017 for 550€ (bought it for 500€ new on release week).

Another difference between buying a used card in 2017/18 and now is that if you don't know if that used Polaris, Vega or Pascal has been used 8-20 hours a week for gaming, or if it's been used 24/7 for 4 years on a mining operation.

The used market is also screwed up. There are no good choices but to go on AMD.com's weekly "lottery event" for getting cards at MSRP or Nvidia's similar events in the US/UK.

Ok.
So if we go with scalping prices; RE: "which will play every single game available on the Series S at significantly increased IQ settings - is somehow a very limited and non-future proof graphics card that no one should buy."

Does paying a scalping price suddenly invalidate the statements made by DF here? I think it makes it even worse. It just makes budget gaming dive towards Series S. The only thing missing are those key mouse and keyboard style games. MMOs, RTS, MOBAS, Valorant etc.

I mean, if scalping is put into consideration isn't it significantly cheaper to buy a Series S then? Series S are actually fairly stocked at MSRP pricing ($379 CAD), I can walk into a store and buy one now, and the total cost of that unit is going to be significantly less than a new PC build at scalping prices not to mention in a form factor that will be considerably smaller in footprint.

 

[Karamazov]

Series S should fare better once all next gen features are used in next gen only games. And when it really starts to fall behind, xcloud should be good enough to taste higher spec'ced games in streaming.