Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2021]

[Deleted member 13524]

Does paying a scalping price suddenly invalidate the statements made by DF here? I think it makes it even worse.

DF only compared the RX 6600 to the RTX 3060, so yes.
They claimed the RX6600 is bad value because the RTX 3060 is much better value at $399. The 3060 doesn't cost $399, so the comparison is moot.

(...)
It just makes budget gaming dive towards Series S. The only thing missing are those key mouse and keyboard style games. MMOs, RTS, MOBAS, Valorant etc.

I mean, if scalping is put into consideration isn't it significantly cheaper to buy a Series S then? Series S are actually fairly stocked at MSRP pricing ($379 CAD), I can walk into a store and buy one now, and the total cost of that unit is going to be significantly less than a new PC build at scalping prices not to mention in a form factor that will be considerably smaller in footprint.

We're conflating different topics here.

1 - DF claims the RX 6600 is generally bad value for its $330 MSRP and given the usual evolution that card should be on the ~$250 price bracket. I agree with this point.

2 - DF claims the RX 6600 is bad value when compared to the RTX 3060 because there's only a $70 difference in price. I disagree because the real price difference at the moment isn't $70. It's more than twice that amount.

3 - DF claims the RX 6600 is not a future-proof GPU because of its low RT performance and lack of DLSS. I disagree because the Series S exists, will undoubtedly be supported for the next 5 years, pretty much all its games will be available on PC, it has lower GPU performance for the same 1080p target and the same featureset as the RX 6600. The existence of the Series S actually makes the RX 6600 a pretty safe bet for longevity at 1080p.

In fact, I'd say whatever IQ settings the Series S manages to achieve at 1080p30, the RX 6600 will probably achieve at 1080p60 considering it has about 2.25x the FP32 throughput and pixel fillrate, and a significantly higher effective bandwidth because of Infinity Cache and not having to share the memory bandwidth with the CPU.

Series S should fare better once all newt gen features are used in next gen only games.

And whatever features become available for the Series S will most likely also be available for the RX 6600 in Windows, given they share the same API and GPU architecture.

 

[Karamazov]

I meant better than now in some games, not better compared to the 6600.

 

[BRiT]

Let's keep this on topic, discussing the actual DF Articles and Videos. Larger discussions should be elsewhere.

 

[BRiT]

DF Article @ https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2021-10-11-how-i-film-digital-foundry-direct

How we built a streamlined recording and streaming setup for DF Direct
Lights, camera, green screen.

Earlier this year, we started DF Direct Weekly - initially envisaged as a way to cover more topics and to do so in a way that wouldn't require massive production values. The obvious way to do this is via a simple Microsoft Teams or Zoom meeting - but the results just weren't good enough, not meeting quality thresholds and looking out of place on the DF YouTube channel. At the same time, we were also looking at ways to more easily deliver higher quality filmed material in a 'work from home' environment, where space is at a premium and where time is of the essence.

In addressing the filming challenges of DF Direct Weekly, we ended up creating environments that would hold up not just for the Direct but for interview and DF retro content too. Ultimately, it's all about integrating DSLRs instead of webcams, while tapping into some of the best streaming hardware available. We think that some of the lessons here could be useful shortcuts for anyone that's looking to create a modern, clutter-free way of streaming or recording videos - so this is a breakdown of exactly how our final setup works, from audio and video to lights, capture and controls.

...

 

[BRiT]

DF Switch Coverage @ https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-beautifully-nightmarish-modern-retro-shooter

Dusk on Switch: a beautifully nightmarish modern retro shooter
The PC game is brilliant - and the mobile port is exceptional.

Dusk is a dark, pixelated, nightmarish boomer shooter - and it left a strong impact when it first shipped on PC back in 2018. In fact, it's one of my top ten games of that year, and it's still brilliant even today. On the surface, the game looks like it stepped right out of 1997, doing a remarkable job of capturing the Quake aesthetic, but beneath the hood, you may be surprised to learn that this is actually a Unity engine project. That's no problem for a modern PC, but what about Nintendo Switch? Dusk is coming soon to the console hybrid and I'm happy to report that the Switch conversion is excellent.

Now, in theory that shouldn't be too difficult, right? After all, Dusk is a retro-stylised shooter, built to approximate the look and feel of a mid-90s, software-rasterised polygonal first-person action game. Dusk does a commendable job of mimicking this very specific Quake-like look. Its hand-painted textures, designed to seamlessly tile across large planes, lack any sort of bilinear interpolation. These textures proudly flaunt raw, pixelated texels, boldly eschewing mip-maps as they're slathered across every map. The maps and the denizens populating them are made up of precious few polygons lending the game an abstract appearance - the silhouette of its jagged architecture and low colour assets strengthen the nightmarish aesthetic Dusk so beautifully delivers.

 

[iroboto]

1 - DF claims the RX 6600 is generally bad value for its $330 MSRP and given the usual evolution that card should be on the ~$250 price bracket. I agree with this point.

2 - DF claims the RX 6600 is bad value when compared to the RTX 3060 because there's only a $70 difference in price. I disagree because the real price difference at the moment isn't $70. It's more than twice that amount.

3 - DF claims the RX 6600 is not a future-proof GPU because of its low RT performance and lack of DLSS. I disagree because the Series S exists, will undoubtedly be supported for the next 5 years, pretty much all its games will be available on PC, it has lower GPU performance for the same 1080p target and the same featureset as the RX 6600. The existence of the Series S actually makes the RX 6600 a pretty safe bet for longevity at 1080p.

In fact, I'd say whatever IQ settings the Series S manages to achieve at 1080p30, the RX 6600 will probably achieve at 1080p60 considering it has about 2.25x the FP32 throughput and pixel fillrate, and a significantly higher effective bandwidth because of Infinity Cache and not having to share the memory bandwidth with the CPU.

Point 1 and 2 should be combined. It's overpriced by $80 and the difference to a 3060 is only $70. Had they priced at $250 this conversation wouldn't be happening.
The discussion around scalping has nothing to do with AMD pricing the card. I get that it is the reality, but you're not forced to pay scalping prices if you're on a budget. If your budget is $330 MSRP and that is all you can afford and the scalping price is much higher, too bad, you don't get a video card, you are stuck at $330. Scalping prices or not won't change that.

As for claim 3, you are 100% correct. Except as I stated earlier, the needs of PC gamers are dramatically different from the needs of console players. So while I agree Series S guarantees it's going to stick around by default, it doesn't mean it's necessarily a good future proofing for PC users. PC users may not be interested in dropping to the quality levels that consoles will inevitably fall to over time.

It may just be an issue of shock and awe. Give it time. I know many reviewers were _not_ impressed with Series S when it was first announced. But over time it gained favour. A quick google shows that some other reviewers also took a similar angle.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Let's keep this on topic, discussing the actual DF Articles and Videos. Larger discussions should be elsewhere.

I'm not sure I follow. Is this related to us discussing DF's discussion on the value and future-proofness of the RX 6600 (the later being technical in nature)? Should that discussion take place elsewhere?

Point 1 and 2 should be combined. It's overpriced by $80 and the difference to a 3060 is only $70. Had they priced at $250 this conversation wouldn't be happening.

The difference isn't $70, it's $150.
MSRP doesn't define the market. It didn't in the past when street prices got much lower on GPUs, nor do they right now when they're much higher. At most, MSRP defines a GPU's price for the release window, though right now it defines the first couple of hours.

Perhaps it would be better to remember what MSRP stands for: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.

The discussion around scalping has nothing to do with AMD pricing the card.

Scalping isn't the only (nor even the most relevant) factor for the current GPU pricing climate. It's a market of offer and demand, and if miners are demanding the RTX 3060 and paying up to $750 for it, then that's how much the RTX 3060 is worth and will be offered at. I don't know if scalpers (i.e. 4th parties who buy cheaper GPUs to stores and distributors to resell them at a profit in ebay) are moving that much volume nowadays. I even know of casual PC gamers who bought their 2xMSRP GPUs based on mining profitability to get some of the investment back.

Obviously, AMD prices their cards according to how much the market is willing to pay for their cards and their competitors' cards, miners or not, and that's why the RX6600's MSRP is $330 and not $250.

Should the GPU mining market magically disappear overnight I'm 99% sure that all the GPUs' MSRPs would come down within months.

 

[PSman1700]

The price point should be compared at it's MSRP price, and not the scalping price, its the only sane way to do it since the card is designed for a specific price point, scalping is another issue entirely.

Oh nice, a sane comment. The price craze and availebility is affecting all gaming hardware, even consoles. Its almost impossible for people here to obtain a PS5, or very expensive in the used market. So no, i do not think DF is doing anything wrong here.

 

[BRiT]

I'm not sure I follow. Is this related to us discussing DF's discussion on the value and future-proofness of the RX 6600 (the later being technical in nature)? Should that discussion take place elsewhere?

Soon there will be a dozen new pieces of content being discussed, and it would be nice if the longer running discussions on older content were not buried by the newer content that DF continually puts out and we discuss. Unless you think the topic of "value of PC GPUs relative to current-gen consoles" won't last much longer. It seemed like maybe it should be promoted to a thread of it's own.

 

[iroboto]

The difference isn't $70, it's $150.

570 CAD
3060
https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_557_559&item_id=198873

$520 CAD 6600
https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_557_558&item_id=206751

They are literally $50 CAD apart. I bought my 3070 from them in person, I just happen to luck out when it showed up 4 months ago. Stock issues aside, that is the price paid if you manage to get one at this particular store. The cards are not designed with scalping prices in mind. I don't know what else to say. They make a family of GPUs and they downscale and price accordingly. When a reviewer of the device is forced to look at the functionality and utility of the card, they must review with the price that direct from retail will provide, or in this case, since it's not equal everywhere, MSRP. It doesn't matter what scalping prices could inflate those prices further, there has to be a baseline to compare it to. But if we go by non MSRP pricing, I'm paying $50 CAD more.
The 3060 TI is significantly higher unfortunately. But on MSRP pricing, you're right, 6600 and 3060 should be the same at $329 and TI at $399. I know I got fleeced a little more on my 3070, because I'm fairly positive the 3080 cost that much on release day. But there are some stores that will not fleece you due to scalper prices:
https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3060-ti-8gb-gddr6-video-card/15166285
3060 TI @ 549 CAD.

I think that's all I can say on that subject. The reality is PS5 is 499. If you can't get one because of scalping, given a long enough time, there will be PS5 at $499. I don't know what else to say on the subject, GPUs are not necessity goods. They aren't like insulin, or gas, food, etc. People aren't forced to pay scalping prices. But at the end of the day, PS5 at $499 performs the same if you buy PS5 at $999. So why not wait and pay less.

If you're on a budget, which these cards are designed for (mainstream gaming), then you should be sticking to your guns to play at the price points that is available to you.

It's not like I don't understand the highway robbery happening here; all my board game prices have gone through the roof! I have to pay 150+ CAD to Kickstart Fractal and I still wont receive the product until late 2022. It's just insanity. But at the same time, I don't have to buy this board game, and these aren't even scalper prices; which will likely go up substantially once it hits retail.

It's just going to come down to perceived value. I think you have a solid argument that due to Series S being out there, that the 6600 is locked. You are right. Whether PC gamers are interested in being tied to the hip to a Series S comes with subjective opinions based on who is reviewing. And whether that additional $70 offers something much more substantial is also at debate. But I don't think it makes any sense to look at inflated scalping prices when there are stores willing to sell it at proper MSRP pricing.

 

[Jawed]

But what is the price point relative to the competition?

You're living under the misapprehension that tech journalists have a fucking clue.

 

[iroboto]

Oh nice, a sane comment. The price craze and availebility is affecting all gaming hardware, even consoles. Its almost impossible for people here to obtain a PS5, or very expensive in the used market. So no, i do not think DF is doing anything wrong here.

Price points are being hit across the board, not just silicon. Wood has increase ten folds etc. Shipping costs are through the roof. Scalpers are an issue, but they alone are not the cause of all of this.

The reality is, MSRP as bad as it is, is used because quite frankly, local pricing is going to be different, area to area, state to state, province to province.

It's no different than noticing that gas in your country is X, and cross the border and discover it is either cheaper or more expensive. But when analysts talk about gas prices, they talking about the cost of a barrel of oil, and not what you're getting hit at the pumps.

When I see the pricing argument here because of scalping/stock issues, it doesn't take into account that some stores inflate their prices and some won't. Who is to know. We only know the MSRP. No one put a gun to AMDs head and asked them to set the MSRP to 329 to compete directly with the 3060 at 329. No one forced Nvidia to set a price point of 399 for 3060 TI.

So if AMD thinks it's worth 329, then it will be judged at 329 and everything around 329, which happens to be 399. I don't see a problem here (from a reviewer perspective) despite the fact that we're clearly paying more than MSRP. But that's not consistent store to store, country to country.

 

[Phantom88]

 

[PSman1700]

Looks nice, great little indie game. CPU heavy game but the 2060S is taking it like a champ anyway. RT seems to offload dev time (good for small devs) and enhances fidelity.

 

[davis.anthony]

10mins and 15 seconds in, surely he's got that backwards?

(Watching with no audio)

 

[iroboto]

Great piece here by Alex and John. These are really critical videos I think for the industry to showcase how modern features are altering the indie scene and really pushing these graphics forward despite having a significantly smaller budget and looking for a completely different style.

Great choice, great video.

 

[BRiT]

DF's look at new GeForce Now service tier @ https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...veals-rtx-3080-class-geforce-now-premium-tier

Nvidia reveals RTX 3080-class GeForce Now premium tier
Bold claims are made for new low-latency technology.

Nvidia has announced a raft of upgrades for its GeForce Now cloud streaming service with a new premium tier offering RTX 3080 class graphics performance, allowing for 1440p120 gameplay across a range of platforms and 4K60 HDR, limited for now to Shield Android TV devices. New latency reductions techniques are also promised, with Nvidia making bold claims about input lag up against competing cloud technologies - and even local devices.

All of this is made possible via brand new class of server blade Nvidia is bringing online, dubbed the 'SuperPod'. While you're not getting to an actual RTX 3080 as such, you are getting equivalent enterprise-class hardware based on the same GA-102 silicon, backed up by an eight-core, 16 thread AMD Threadripper processor working in combination with ultra-fast PCIe Gen 4.0 solid-state storage and an impressive 28GB of 3200MHz DDR4 memory. This gives the SuperPod top-class graphics performance (only an RTX 3080 Ti or RTX 3090 are faster in the Nvidia stack), though CPU performance would fall a little short of the latest Ryzen 5000 and Intel CPUs.

...

 

[Dictator]

New Geforce now makes me question what the hell the point of Stadia is to be in the future.

 

[BRiT]

New Geforce now makes me question what the hell the point of Stadia is to be in the future.

Like most Google products, even when fully supported, it's a matter of time before it's Graveyard entirely. I do not see Stadia ever upgrading the equipment behind Stadia nor do I see them updating the SDKs.

I was surprised to see they reached a deal with AT&T/WB/Discover for "Play Batman". It's using the Stadia engine behind the scenes.
https://more.att.com/play/batman/

 

[pjbliverpool]

DF's look at new GeForce Now service tier @ https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...veals-rtx-3080-class-geforce-now-premium-tier

Nvidia reveals RTX 3080-class GeForce Now premium tier
Bold claims are made for new low-latency technology.

Nvidia has announced a raft of upgrades for its GeForce Now cloud streaming service with a new premium tier offering RTX 3080 class graphics performance, allowing for 1440p120 gameplay across a range of platforms and 4K60 HDR, limited for now to Shield Android TV devices. New latency reductions techniques are also promised, with Nvidia making bold claims about input lag up against competing cloud technologies - and even local devices.

All of this is made possible via brand new class of server blade Nvidia is bringing online, dubbed the 'SuperPod'. While you're not getting to an actual RTX 3080 as such, you are getting equivalent enterprise-class hardware based on the same GA-102 silicon, backed up by an eight-core, 16 thread AMD Threadripper processor working in combination with ultra-fast PCIe Gen 4.0 solid-state storage and an impressive 28GB of 3200MHz DDR4 memory. This gives the SuperPod top-class graphics performance (only an RTX 3080 Ti or RTX 3090 are faster in the Nvidia stack), though CPU performance would fall a little short of the latest Ryzen 5000 and Intel CPUs.

...

While cool, things like this will be the death of standalone hardware. I intend to enjoy if for as long as it lasts but it seems the clock is rapidly running down for us hardware enthusiasts.